Penalty fare changes from 1st April 2019

[whole diary]

[grahame]

I am 100% in favour of ensuring that all passengers pay their fares.     

I am also in favour of ensuring that it's clear to all passengers how they can buy their tickets, and that the railway offers a good selection of options for everyone.

The ticket machine at Melksham, which is where the above sign has appeared, takes debit and credit cards only (not cash and not travel warrants / vouchertesthat need to be exchanged for tickets) and does not sell Groupsave, nor ranger or rover tickets.  I'm not sure how it is on longer period seasons.  And in my view it fails to provide adequate guidance on what off peak and super off peak are, referring you to the help point along the platform if you need to ask.

I was down at the station on Sunday chatting with a mother who's son often travels to Chippenham or Swindon on his own. Amazingly, he does not have a credit or debit card and she gives him cash; he's always bought his ticket from the train manager, or on those not infrequent occasions where the train manager hasn't had a working machine, at the far end of his journey.

Question 1.   The conditions now say "if ticket selling facilities are not available" and not "if facilities for selling you the ticket you need using the payment method you have are not available" - does that mean that from 1st April penalty fares may be charged to those who turn up and want to pay with cash?

Question 2. If you have purchased an advance ticket but are unable to collect it, (e.g. the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) is out or order or the queue is too long), is the notice telling us that you will NOT be liable to a penalty fare (since you have already purchased your ticket as they require, even though you can't produce it)?

Question 3. Is the sign guaranteeing that Trains Manager will henceforth always have a working ticket machine and be around to sell you a ticket during even the shortest of journeys?

Unless the answers are Yes, yes and yes (which I doubt) ... it strikes me that the penalty fare notice is pretty poorly worded and come across as threatening to some legitimate customers, while encouraging others to believe they're in the clear when perhaps they're not.   Oh dear ....

[didcotdean]

GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) are having a bit of a giraffe putting up this online pdf on Revenue Protection. This might print out correctly (I'm not going to try but it seems to be an A5 booklet), but it should be readable on the screen without having to twist your neck round.


The buy before you board document is readable, but refers to the old areas. It does say "Self-service ticket machines: These are available at many of our stations and will usually accept cash or credit and debit cards." (My emphasis.)

[MVR S&T]

My experience with SWT^▸ (South West Trains)/SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) and penalty fares, which we have had for many years now, is that the passenger needs to be pro active, get a ticket upfront, if not possible, seek out the guard/train Manager, explain the situation and offer to buy the ticket, sometime no machine or faulty, they will advise you buy at interchange or destination, if you just sit down and they come to you a penalty charge could be applied, its the attitude thing agian.
We used to have revenue protection staff, but not seen them about recently...

[lympstone_commuter]

I notice that Topsham is listed as being a Penalty Fare station after 1 April.

This may cause a problem for southbound passengers unless a ticket machine is to be provided on the southbound platform. (There is indeed a ticket machine on the northbound platform, but when the level crossing barriers come down there is no way to cross the tracks. Thus, a southbound passenger coming to the station from Topsham town centre has to get to the southbound platform early enough not to get caught on the wrong side of the barriers, and has no reasonable opportunity to purchase a ticket before boarding.) Under current conditions it is unreasoable to treat Topsham (southbound) as a Penalty Fare station. I have argued this very point with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway).

More generally, I fear the mix of Penalty Fare / non-Penalty Fare stations on the Exmouth line will cause unnecessary problems for honest passengers who have been *unable* to purchase tickets. I am, of course, all in favour of penatlty fares for those who are *evading* fares.

[Adrian]

Question no. 4 - Why doesn't it apply in Wales?  It's not as if TfW has a completely different policy on the matter.

[ellendune]

Perhaps because the Welsh Government would have to make the Regulations not DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).

[Adrian]

Perhaps because the Welsh Government would have to make the Regulations not DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).

I thought that this regulation was already in place; just often not enforced in practice.  It is exactly the same message as has been broadcast across the PA^▸ (Public Address) at many Welsh stations for the last year or so - including my own local station which has no ticket buying facilities.

[ellendune]

Perhaps because the Welsh Government would have to make the Regulations not DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).

I thought that this regulation was already in place; just often not enforced in practice.  It is exactly the same message as has been broadcast across the PA^▸ (Public Address) at many Welsh stations for the last year or so - including my own local station which has no ticket buying facilities.

It would need some sort of Statutory Instrument to extend the area. 

[Reginald25]

A often repeated complaint of mine is that the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at Melksham is virtually impossible to use when the sun shines (yes I do mean that). the screen is unreadable, I've had trouble collecting prebooked (and hence intent to operate honestly) tickets due to this.

[Ralph Ayres]

Those GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) documents (just use the rotate button on your pdf reader if you don't want a stiff neck!) are very big on the consequences of avoiding buying a ticket, but far less helpful where for all sorts of reasons the passenger cannot buy the ticket they want.  It would be far clearer if they said what to do if you needed something the machine couldn't handle (Group save, a different payment method, a ticket type not shown, an excess/extension of some sort etc).  I know the machines barely exist now, but I do particularly like the bit about Permit to Travel machines where it says you should "insert the maximum amount of coins that you have".  Can't I keep even one 10p piece for an emergency phone call?

[ChrisB]

Hah! you obviously haven';t needed to make one of those in an awfully long time! Minimum charge in a coinbox phone is now 60p......

[ChrisB]

Question 1.   The conditions now say "if ticket selling facilities are not available" and not "if facilities for selling you the ticket you need using the payment method you have are not available" - does that mean that from 1st April penalty fares may be charged to those who turn up and want to pay with cash?

I hope you are expecting a 'No' answer to this question - not a 'Yes' you refer to further down your post!

It should be a 'No' and the original statement should still be valid, as cash is a perfectly legitimate way to pay (still!). Just because the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) can't built a theft-proof ticket machine isn't the fault of the customer, and cash should still be accepted. If they choose not to accept that at TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine), it's *their* problem to deal with properly, not the customers. I will take it up with the suitable management member if/when I get a chance - and I suggest your RUG^» (Rail User Group - about) does the same!

Question 2. If you have purchased an advance ticket but are unable to collect it, (e.g. the TVM is out or order or the queue is too long), is the notice telling us that you will NOT be liable to a penalty fare (since you have already purchased your ticket as they require, even though you can't produce it)?

hmmm - "the queue is too long" is a tad subjective - how long is too long? yes, customer can be expected to arrive earlier for their train if they know they need to collect a ticket. I would suggest 10 mins isn't too long to wait in the peak - but
this should be shorter/less likely as more people swap to buying tickets within their app? Allowances would need to be made by revenue staff, and I'm sure it's something that the new Ombudsman will be taking up.

In answer to your question though - I don't know the answer to this from a legal point of view - I wonder whether it's been tested? My guess is that no penalty fare should be charged if proof is carried of online purchase, but if you are made to buy again, a refund of the first fare should be made without deduction. Depends whether the online purchase T&Cs can stand up in court.

Question 3. Is the sign guaranteeing that Trains Manager will henceforth always have a working ticket machine and be around to sell you a ticket during even the shortest of journeys?

It is for the customer to be pro-active as mentioned elsewhere in this thread. On non-DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) services, the train manager/guard will be on the platform during despatch so there certainly is no argument about not being able to find them, even on one-stop journeys. If DOO obviously likely generally not to have anyone on board to purchase from.

Unless the answers are Yes, yes and yes (which I doubt) ... it strikes me that the penalty fare notice is pretty poorly worded and come across as threatening to some legitimate customers, while encouraging others to believe they're in the clear when perhaps they're not.   Oh dear ....

That would presumably be No, yes & yes?

THis area is something that I can see the Ombudsman getting their teeth into quite soon....

[Surrey 455]

Hah! you obviously haven';t needed to make one of those in an awfully long time! Minimum charge in a coinbox phone is now 60p......

It actually costs more than that. 60p for the call & about £1 for a pack of wet wipes to clean the disgusting phone before touching it.

[JayMac]

Not forgetting the wear and tear on your shoes walking to find one.

[Phantom]

Is there an online list anywhere of stations that are in / out of this penalty fare zone?
Notice the PDF above is a bit out of date