Alstom and Eversholt to hydrogenate class 321s

[whole diary]

[broadgage]

It is also worth remembering that batteries are still improving, and that a battery train or a 25Kv/battery hybrid train built today can be retrofitted with improved batteries in years to come.

Hydrogen storage by contrast is unlikely to improve.
High pressure gas tanks and cylinders are a mature and well understood technology, it seems unlikely that much improvement will occur.

We might find cheaper ways to manufacture hydrogen, but it is always going to cost more than the electricity or other energy used as the input.

[Bmblbzzz]

Hydrogen storage is unlikely to improve but fuel cells might. Your point about retrofitting with more efficient batteries is good though.

[4064ReadingAbbey]

Concerning the perceived risks of running trains with leaking hydrogen tanks or piping through tunnels. I would point out that the area of operation of the Alstom iLint trains in northern Germany is flat. Tunnels are unknown.

So I don't think that the experience gained there will read across in its entirety to the UK^▸ (United Kingdom).

[Red Squirrel]

Whenever I hear of another venture into hydrogen-powered vehicles, I'm reminded of a book review purportedly written by a 10-year-old after spending the summer reading a book called 'All About Wasps':-

This book told me everything I could possibly want to know about wasps, except: Why?

[Bmblbzzz]

A tweet by the editor of Rail Engineer magazine says hydrogen trains require 3 times as much electricity as an electric train and 8 times the fuel storage volume of a diesel, for the same energy store.
https://twitter.com/DavidShirres/status/1083076698231443456

Further to recent Tweets about Alston’s UK^▸ (United Kingdom) Hydrogen train, this slide has key points that need to be understood to assess potential of these trains. 2nd last bullet is particularly topical

[Red Squirrel]

There's an article about these trains in Rail 870... but I wouldn't rush out to buy it on the strength of that.

The issue of energy density (referred to in Bmblbzzz's post) needs consideration: ICE power plants are typically around 20% efficient (YMMV^▸ (Your Method/Mileage May Vary)), whilst fuel cells are around 35%; batteries on the other hand are around 99% efficient - so when comparing energy density, you need to bear in mind how much of that energy is going to make it to the electric motor.

I still don't get why anyone is investing in this technology. Is it something to do with the fact that PPE courses don't contain a 'simple applied physics' module?

[Dispatch Box]

Could the tanks explode in very hot weather?.

[broadgage]

Could the tanks explode in very hot weather?.

Hopefully the well understood increase in pressure at high temperatures has been thought of.
And of course even if the train is not actually moving, but is available for service, then some hydrogen will be consumed for auxiliary purposes. Any consumption drops the pressure in the tank.

[ellendune]

The problem with gas on trains in the past has been what happens in an accident if the tanks or connecting pipes are ruptured in an accident.  Was it Quintinshill where we learnt that lesson?  And are we now to forget it?

[Dispatch Box]

The problem with gas on trains in the past has been what happens in an accident if the tanks or connecting pipes are ruptured in an accident.  Was it Quintinshill where we learnt that lesson?  And are we now to forget it?

There was a programme on tv some months ago, that I watched and it showed an old wooden carriage train explode, after the gas tanks on the roof ignited. The tanks powered the lighting.

[Red Squirrel]

The problem with gas on trains in the past has been what happens in an accident if the tanks or connecting pipes are ruptured in an accident.  Was it Quintinshill where we learnt that lesson?  And are we now to forget it?

I think the problem with Pintsch gas was that it was heavier than air, and thus sank into the wreckage until it found a source of ignition. Hydrogen on the other hand stands a decent chance of floating away harmlessly.

Doesn't make hydrogen trains any less pointless, but it does make them sound a bit safer!

[eightonedee]

A tweet by the editor of Rail Engineer magazine says hydrogen trains require 3 times as much electricity as an electric train and 8 times the fuel storage volume of a diesel, for the same energy store.

So, in summary-

1 - You only get two coaches of accommodation in a three coach train
2 - They cannot routinely run through tunnels for safety reasons, so on GW^▸ (Great Western) could only run on the Thames Valley branches (not North Downs - tunnel south of Guildford) or east of Chippenham. Even in flat East Anglia, there's a tunnel just south of Ipswich!
3 - Vast amounts of electricity required to produce the hydrogen

I'm not sure "Breeze" is an appropriate name - perhaps "BRitish EXperimental Innovation Train", which shortens nicely to something else topical.....

Electrification now!

[Dispatch Box]

A tweet by the editor of Rail Engineer magazine says hydrogen trains require 3 times as much electricity as an electric train and 8 times the fuel storage volume of a diesel, for the same energy store.

So, in summary-

1 - You only get two coaches of accommodation in a three coach train
2 - They cannot routinely run through tunnels for safety reasons, so on GW^▸ (Great Western) could only run on the Thames Valley branches (not North Downs - tunnel south of Guildford) or east of Chippenham. Even in flat East Anglia, there's a tunnel just south of Ipswich!
3 - Vast amounts of electricity required to produce the hydrogen

I'm not sure "Breeze" is an appropriate name - perhaps "BRitish EXperimental Innovation Train", which shortens nicely to something else topical.....

Electrification now!

So really no good between Cardiff and Portsmouth.

[Bmblbzzz]

I'm not sure "Breeze" is an appropriate name

It makes me think of this: https://www.letsride.co.uk/breeze
An initiative to get more women into sporty cycling, of which someone (a woman actually involved with the scheme) said "It sounds like a name for sanitary towel."

[johnneyw]

It seems Vivarail have taken a perhaps surprising decision regarding their new hydrogen powered train in that they intend to store the hydrogen under the carriage.

http://vivarail.co.uk/vivarail-spearheads-development-of-green-fuel-technologies/

I say surprising as some earlier forum discussion seems to have indicated that this wasn't a very desirable option from a safety point of view. It's only in development right now but it might be interesting to see which applications it may suit.