What happens if the alternate sprinter is up to hourly?

[whole diary]

[Dispatch Box]

We have ourselves in this discussion as a we have drifted away from the issues at the weekend.

Big win - big capacity increase, Swindon to Gloucester and Cheltenham Spa, almost all trains through from London at the major timetable change.   2 and 3 car trains on the run are up to at least 5 cars.   Increasing further to add in a 2 or 3 car train that doubles the capacity on that would require a very strong business case on top of the one made successfully but not yet implemented for the London extensions and routinely longer trains.

Now - what's missing from Swindon's service?  A fast service to Birmingham (reverse at Gloucester seems to take an age on the way up North!).  And a decent service to Oxford.  With Swindon looking to join the Heart of England Subregional grouping, it's looking at a future with Oxford and it's perverse for that near-city at the western extreme of that area to be reliant a single carriageway A420 or an M4/A34 dogleg nearly to Newbury, and with a frequent but slow bus service or trains that involve a pretty randomly connecting none-pattern at Didcot.

So - a better use of one of the two units release off the Stroud Valley would be an extension to Oxford from the TransWilts.   It's already a major flow for people, it's very poor by rail at the moment, it gives excellent connections onward to Coventry and Birmingham, it links up the way the regions will be linking up, and it looks forward to Manjana when the train are running from Oxford to Milton Keynes, with West Coast main line connections.  In fact, the same train may as well carry on from Oxford.

And the issue is Gloucester. You have a massive revenue spot and probably a lot of people using it but the fact it takes around a decade to reverse it just causes delays even greaterly.

What we need in Gloucester Charlie is a pot of money from the D.F.I. The present station being demolished and replaced with 2 platforms, remove the old plat 1 and renumber 4 plat 1. Then build a new smaller station with a buffet and ticket office. Then build a new station outside with 1 island platform and 2 outer ones, Then call it Gloucester parkway.
 
But I have a problem as to where it could be sited, all the land in the most sensible places has been developed, and also the lines are on a raised embankment.

[Dispatch Box]

I have also got my thinking cap on, I was wondering whether a service from Birmingham NS to London Paddington could also be added which would run from Birmingham down the line to Westerleigh junction then up to London via Swindon, It would require the curve at Westerleigh to need reinstating. It should at least provide Swindon with a service where people would not need to change, Could also go via Stroud but we would have a lot of trains on this route and would need to made much better, by track relaying and may also need the signals respaced.

[martyjon]

I have also got my thinking cap on, I was wondering whether a service from Birmingham NS to London Paddington could also be added which would run from Birmingham down the line to Westerleigh junction then up to London via Swindon, It would require the curve at Westerleigh to need reinstating. It should at least provide Swindon with a service where people would not need to change, Could also go via Stroud but we would have a lot of trains on this route and would need to made much better, by track relaying and may also need the signals respaced.

There was a plan a few years ago for Virgin Cross Country to run cut down 5 coach HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s from Birmingham New Street to London Paddington via Cheltenham and Swindon and as part of this plan Swindon - Gloucester/Cheltenham services were transferred to Virgin XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) but after the transfer it was discovered that there were insufficient paths into the London Terminus so the service was transferred back. I am sure there was a thread on this perhaps the moderators can post a link to that thread.

It would be a VERY remote possibility to re-instate the east curve at Westerleigh as all the land within what was the Westerleigh triangle is now owned by South Gloucestershire Council and a local community organisation and has partly been developed.

[CMRail]

And the issue is Gloucester. You have a massive revenue spot and probably a lot of people using it but the fact it takes around a decade to reverse it just causes delays even greaterly.

Agreed, Gloucester is a source of considerable revenue. And to acknowledge that, as from (?) end of this year, Gloucester's train service direct to London goes up from one every 2 hours to one an hour.

Doesn't do badly on some other fronts too - look at this comparative for trips to Birmingham:
Gloucester to Birmingham 69 miles, population 130,000.  Train journey just under 1 hour, hourly train without changes
Swindon to Birmingham 93 miles, population 200,000. Train journey 2 hours 5 minutes, 1 or 2 changes

I suspect there is a far better business case for Swindon - Oxford - making for good journeys beyond there to Milton Keynes, to Coventy and to Birmingham that there is for another train up the Stroud Valley, which to a greater or lesser extrent would compete with / abstract traffic from the higher capaity to London being provided, calling at exacely the same stations.

Gloucester may have a case for
a) Hourly rather that two hourly to Worcester
b) Improvements on the Journey to Bristol, which a few trains do in 37 minutes but most take around 53, and they're only running hourly.

MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) says he’s in talks with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) for a half hourly stopper and then speeding up others, and also cross country have agreed to call three more a day. However really I don’t believe him until I see it with my own eyes. It would be nice for a Swindon-Birmingham service and anyone who travels when filton bank is blocked you would know that a considerable amount of people boarded/alighted at Swindon.

[Dispatch Box]

And the issue is Gloucester. You have a massive revenue spot and probably a lot of people using it but the fact it takes around a decade to reverse it just causes delays even greaterly.

Agreed, Gloucester is a source of considerable revenue. And to acknowledge that, as from (?) end of this year, Gloucester's train service direct to London goes up from one every 2 hours to one an hour.

Doesn't do badly on some other fronts too - look at this comparative for trips to Birmingham:
Gloucester to Birmingham 69 miles, population 130,000.  Train journey just under 1 hour, hourly train without changes
Swindon to Birmingham 93 miles, population 200,000. Train journey 2 hours 5 minutes, 1 or 2 changes

I suspect there is a far better business case for Swindon - Oxford - making for good journeys beyond there to Milton Keynes, to Coventy and to Birmingham that there is for another train up the Stroud Valley, which to a greater or lesser extrent would compete with / abstract traffic from the higher capaity to London being provided, calling at exacely the same stations.

Gloucester may have a case for
a) Hourly rather that two hourly to Worcester
b) Improvements on the Journey to Bristol, which a few trains do in 37 minutes but most take around 53, and they're only running hourly.

MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) says he’s in talks with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) for a half hourly stopper and then speeding up others, and also cross country have agreed to call three more a day. However really I don’t believe him until I see it with my own eyes. It would be nice for a Swindon-Birmingham service and anyone who travels when filton bank is blocked you would know that a considerable amount of people boarded/alighted at Swindon.

At the moment, the only Birmingham's we have is from Cardiff. Who would operate a Swindon to Birmingham, at the moment GWR do not go through Birmingham.

[Dispatch Box]

It would make more sense if the I.E.Ts could run hourly from Cheltenham to London Paddington, and the smaller ones run hourly from Cheltenham to Westbury via Melksham

I guess it depends what you mean by "make more sense". The suggestion would mean twice as many trains on the Gloucester to Swindon line, which will obviously cost a lot more to operate.  So it only makes sense if there is enough passenger demand for more trains, and either the extra income justifies it or someone is willing to pay for it. Unless that decision is made then I would have thought an hourly service on the Melksham line would be better off self contained, so as not to complicate matters.

The make more sense bit, was included to read, that trains from Westbury would run to Cheltenham allowing people a faster service than going via Bristol to Great malvern, which often gets delayed. Maybe it would be better to serve Stonehouse, Stroud, Kemble on this service and run the Londons right through and not stop at these stations. Surely must be more cost effective, also Melksham does have a better service than ending at Swindon.

Well, just noticed that there is a Cheltenham to Westbury service today.

departs Gloucester at 20:14 then calls at Stonehouse, Stroud, Kemble, Swindon, Chippenham, Melksham, Trowbridge, then lastly Westbury. If they can do that, like I said, could be a better service, than just terminating at Swindon.

[phile]

It would make more sense if the I.E.Ts could run hourly from Cheltenham to London Paddington, and the smaller ones run hourly from Cheltenham to Westbury via Melksham

I guess it depends what you mean by "make more sense". The suggestion would mean twice as many trains on the Gloucester to Swindon line, which will obviously cost a lot more to operate.  So it only makes sense if there is enough passenger demand for more trains, and either the extra income justifies it or someone is willing to pay for it. Unless that decision is made then I would have thought an hourly service on the Melksham line would be better off self contained, so as not to complicate matters.

The make more sense bit, was included to read, that trains from Westbury would run to Cheltenham allowing people a faster service than going via Bristol to Great malvern, which often gets delayed. Maybe it would be better to serve Stonehouse, Stroud, Kemble on this service and run the Londons right through and not stop at these stations. Surely must be more cost effective, also Melksham does have a better service than ending at Swindon.

Well, just noticed that there is a Cheltenham to Westbury service today.

departs Gloucester at 20:14 then calls at Stonehouse, Stroud, Kemble, Swindon, Chippenham, Melksham, Trowbridge, then lastly Westbury. If they can do that, like I said, could be a better service, than just terminating at Swindon.

It's run for several years now,.       Mons to Fris there are two services from Cheltenham and Gloucester to Southampton

[grahame]

Well, just noticed that there is a Cheltenham to Westbury service today.

departs Gloucester at 20:14 then calls at Stonehouse, Stroud, Kemble, Swindon, Chippenham, Melksham, Trowbridge, then lastly Westbury. If they can do that, like I said, could be a better service, than just terminating at Swindon.

The Westbury <-> Swindon service comprises those services that ran prior to December 2013, plus  an extra train which started shuttling up and down at that time.  There is also an extra return trip on Mondays to Fridays at lunch time.

Current derivatives of the pre-2013 service on a Saturday run at 08:22 and 15:06 from Westbury, and at 15:22 and 21:06 from Swindon.  Stock goes to / comes from the Swindon - Cheltenham Spa service.    Only where there's no significant layover are they advertised as though services at Swindon.

[grahame]

Mons to Fris there are two services from Cheltenham and Gloucester to Southampton

05:17 Gloucester and 17:40(ash) Cheltenham Spa to Southampton.
 
07:04 and 19:35 Westbury to Cheltenham Spa.

[Dispatch Box]

Mons to Fris there are two services from Cheltenham and Gloucester to Southampton

05:17 Gloucester and 17:40(ash) Cheltenham Spa to Southampton.
 
07:04 and 19:35 Westbury to Cheltenham Spa.

That 17:40 is now the 17:41 and leaves Gloucester at 17:54 and reverses in plat 2 at Swindon. Some days ago this was terminated at Melksham.

[DaveHarries]

Mons to Fris there are two services from Cheltenham and Gloucester to Southampton

05:17 Gloucester and 17:40(ash) Cheltenham Spa to Southampton.
 
07:04 and 19:35 Westbury to Cheltenham Spa.

That 17:40 is now the 17:41 and leaves Gloucester at 17:54 and reverses in plat 2 at Swindon. Some days ago this was terminated at Melksham.

Thought I would rejuvinate this topic as the wording of this reply is relevant.

I have heard that the HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) will go hourly from December 2019 along the Kemble line and thereby eliminate nearly all of the diesel shuttles. My understanding is that the diesel stoppers in the morning and evening peaks (ie. those mentioned in the quote) will continue to run but with changes. Final details won't appear in public (ie. OpenTrainTimes / RealTimeTrains) until around September / October I would think.

HTIOI,
Dave

[grahame]

As I recall (I don't have the timetable drafts to hand - I am away tonight) you are broadly correct. The 05:17 from Gloucester becomes a through train to London, getting to Swindon (I think) in time for the Westbury train, which is now provided by the stock from a new 05:18 Westbury to Swindon service.

The two trains the have fed into the 2 hourly local train going up from Chippenham - one from Westbury and one fro Gloucester via Bristol no longer feed in that way.  So that removes the through service from Keynsham and Oldfield Park to Swindon, the one train a day that's not an IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) through Corsham.   That and other changes mean the service from Chippenham into Swindon in the peak hour will have a gap of over 40 minutes now, rather than just over 20 minutes at present.  All subject to Network Rail agreeing the proposals which are with them at present (confirmed still to be the case this evening by a GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) director who I reminded of the more local traffic ;-) )