Are Turbos back to replace 180?

[whole diary]

[devon_metro]

Turbos may be fine from Charlbury to Oxford, it's not on from Malvern to Paddington. Other trains being even more uncomfortable shows how little focus FGW^▸ (First Great Western) has on the customer.

I'd disagree there. If FGW were to specify the use of an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) for the Cotswolds in short availability a service that might be far busier and more well used might be cancelled. Therefore its only sensible to subsitute for a turbo - at least it wasn't cancelled!

[Andy W]

Turbos may be fine from Charlbury to Oxford, it's not on from Malvern to Paddington. Other trains being even more uncomfortable shows how little focus FGW^▸ (First Great Western) has on the customer.

I'd disagree there. If FGW were to specify the use of an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) for the Cotswolds in short availability a service that might be far busier and more well used might be cancelled. Therefore its only sensible to subsitute for a turbo - at least it wasn't cancelled!

Hi Devon Metro,

The turbo isn't a substitution as swlines demonstrated it's a scheduled change.

If there is a problem with an HST on a busier route it is sensible on those occasions to cascade the change and the Cotswolds gets the smaller train. I agree under these circumstances something is better than nothing. This isn't the case here.

Finally they are returning 180s that would make that academic.

[willc]

Andy,

Much of this ground was covered a while back as the wind-down of Adelantes began.

Please note I said they were suitable for MOST Cotswold Line services - the loadings on the 08.37 in recent years made it a candidate for an HST^▸ (High Speed Train), but due to the light loads on its journey out to Worcester, the 05.42 is first choice to get its HST pinched to cover other services where HSTs are essential.

To flesh out the 'most', what I mean is the 05.50 from Moreton (Adelantes cope with the loading on this throughout to London), then HSTs for the rest of the peak into Oxford and London, but for anything leaving Worcester after 9am, an HST is overkill capacity-wise and an Adelante could accommodate those joining at Oxford as well. In the other direction, HSTs are pretty empty up until the 15.51 from London, but from the 19.21 onwards they are not needed.

In any case, HSTs are here to stay, so any discussion of splitting Adelantes at Oxford is academic - FGW^▸ (First Great Western) don't want to pay the leasing fees any more, which are sky-high by most accounts, for a train that, sadly, has never been noted for reliability.

Re the Chiltern Clubmans, yes, I do use them (and CrossCountry 170s) on occasion, and in my view they are not of the same quality as a passenger vehicle as an Adelante, nor even a 175, to make a fairer comparison. Nothing with doors at 1/3 and 2/3 positions along the coach ever will compare well with end doors. If Clubmans were to turn up on the Cotswold Line, I know what the reaction of people travelling from, er, Malvern would be - not good.

PS: The centre car on a 166 has an area of 2+2 standard class seating, with tables - I believe it was originally intended to be first class. And there are still many people in the rail industry who can't believe Chiltern scrapped first class, given they serve some of the wealthiest communities in the whole country.

[Btline]

With Chiltern, the whole train is First Class.

[Btline]

So what do you suggest? You have just said that Adelantes are ideal for the Cotswold line, but then said that they can't cope south of Oxford. It has got to be one or the other, unless you run Adelantes/Thames Turbos every hour from Oxford to Worcester, and then half hourly HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) from Oxford to Paddington.

Hi Btline,

HST at peak and Adelantes off peak (which is what I thought the plan was)

Alternatively, at peak times I'd run 10 coach Adelantes to Oxford & split at Oxford on the down. I'd run 5 coach Adelantes to Oxford coupling up to 10 coach on the up. Off peak run 5 coach Adelantes.

I also think, at peak times, they should consider treating Reading / Slough like Virgin treat Watford, ie pick up only on the down, set down only on the up.

For what it's worth, now to be really unpopular, I don't think they should take bikes. As an alternative they could offer bike hire at Oxford / Paddington.

You are probable right- HSTs are overkill off peak.

But- it is harder than you think to simply "switch" to HSTs during the peaks because of diagrams (e.g. An evening peak form Padd should be an HST. This means that the up afternoon off peak (empty) has to be an HST. But that means that the noon off peak down service has to be an HST.... and so on....

Can you see? It is either one or the other (or Thames Turbos ).

And also- where do you keep the Adelantes/HSTs when they are not being used?

[willc]

With Chiltern, the whole train is First Class

This is a joke, right? I don't often travel first but I would expect something better than a Chiltern Clubman when I do pay the extra.

By first moving Adelantes on to the Cotswold Line, and now going, as far as is practical, all-HST^▸ (High Speed Train), FGW^▸ (First Great Western) recognised the deficiencies of Turbo-type trains - and I include 168s/170s etc in that definition - for longer journeys and did something about it, so let's give them some credit for that.

In contrast, Chiltern has stuck with the original BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) Class 166 Turbo Express concept, of taking a basic suburban DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) shell (165) and upping the interior spec, even though on Birmingham to London runs a better train would make them a more attractive proposition compared with Pendolinos, which may be fast, but have precious little else going for them.

Getting back to the original notion here, if it really were the case that there were Turbos turning up all over the place on the Cotswold Line, I would be the first to complain to FGW, but they just aren't out there and haven't been since the end of the Christmas and New Year period, except on the handful of trains they are meant to be on. An Adelante turning up now and again until the extra HST arrives is far from a disaster.

[Shazz]

With Chiltern, the whole train is First Class

This is a joke, right? I don't often travel first but I would expect something better than a Chiltern Clubman when I do pay the extra.

By first moving Adelantes on to the Cotswold Line, and now going, as far as is practical, all-HST^▸ (High Speed Train), FGW^▸ (First Great Western) recognised the deficiencies of Turbo-type trains - and I include 168s/170s etc in that definition - for longer journeys and did something about it, so let's give them some credit for that.

It went to all HST after a bunch of whiney commuters somehow got the adelante "issue" into the house of commons a few years back. At which point, FGW agreed with them/the dft to revert back to shortened HSTS.

The change has been coming for a LONG time, stop trying to look suprised.

[IanL]

2-3 years ago FGW^▸ (First Great Western) promised to get rid of the majority of the turbos and provide 125mph capable rolling stock, this never happened as the Adelante were so unreliable and were used on many of the peak trains so were impossibly crowded (only 2 HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) each way morning and evening then). After 18months of failing to keep this promise FGW promised to introduce refurbished HSTs, now over a year past the promised introduction the final HST has been refurbished but still we get train swaps. Another broken promise.

WillC....yes any train is better than one that fails to turn up....the 0837 WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains)-PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) is particularly bad for this as it is the first train down the line in the morning and often gets terminated at oxford if there are any signal/train problems in the morning.

As for turbos off peak, then two weeks ago I took the 0937 WOS-PAD, turbo as scheduled but absolutely packed and I had to stand between Charlbury and Reading. Yes a lot of the time smaller trains can be used, but the demand is incredibly peaky and available rolling stock does not allow for this.

I have been commuting for over 6 years on this line and have seen many 'regulars' go back to the car purely for reliability and the ability to get a seat issues.

FGW really need to realise that after so many broken promises commuters on the cotswold line are fed up with being at the bottom of the rolling stock cascade when the inevitable train breakdown occurs.

[Mookiemoo]

I started these silly commutes in 2004 - and at first I went standard - until I realised how prevalent turbos were and that they didnt have tables in standard.  I very quickly went first and am now spoilt.

However, if there were a clubman (where every seat has a table) or even a 175 or 158 (I have commuted ludlow - manchester in the past) I wouldnt bother with a first class ticket.  To me, its all about the tables.

I'd rather a clubman than a refurbed HST^▸ (High Speed Train) standard class.

[willc]

It went to all HST^▸ (High Speed Train) after a bunch of whiney commuters somehow got the adelante "issue" into the house of commons a few years back. At which point, FGW^▸ (First Great Western) agreed with them/the dft to revert back to shortened HSTS.

The change has been coming for a LONG time, stop trying to look suprised.

Surprised? I just don't know where you're coming from with this. Who's surprised and about what?

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about these "whiney commuters". Are you going to tell us that FGW's passengers haven't had anything to whine about in recent years? If people want to involve their MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament), that's their right. And ditching Adelantes was FGW's decision, due to the high cost of running them and their unreliability, nothing to do with the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about).

Ian, while the last refurbished HST power cars may recently have left Loughborough, others which were re-engined earlier are going back there for remedial work, or other attention, so the full fleet still isn't available. The first time I saw anything about FGW acquiring the extra HST it stated that it was specifically intended to provide a "hot spare" so there would be a bit of slack to allow for last-minute failures to be replaced with the minimum of fuss.

If the Adelantes had all left FGW by now as planned, then something beginning with T would be turning up on the 05.42/09.38 whenever there are problems and none of us wants to see that.

[Btline]

With Chiltern, the whole train is First Class

This is a joke, right? I don't often travel first but I would expect something better than a Chiltern Clubman when I do pay the extra.

By first moving Adelantes on to the Cotswold Line, and now going, as far as is practical, all-HST^▸ (High Speed Train), FGW^▸ (First Great Western) recognised the deficiencies of Turbo-type trains - and I include 168s/170s etc in that definition - for longer journeys and did something about it, so let's give them some credit for that.

In contrast, Chiltern has stuck with the original BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) Class 166 Turbo Express concept, of taking a basic suburban DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) shell (165) and upping the interior spec, even though on Birmingham to London runs a better train would make them a more attractive proposition compared with Pendolinos, which may be fast, but have precious little else going for them.

Getting back to the original notion here, if it really were the case that there were Turbos turning up all over the place on the Cotswold Line, I would be the first to complain to FGW, but they just aren't out there and haven't been since the end of the Christmas and New Year period, except on the handful of trains they are meant to be on. An Adelante turning up now and again until the extra HST arrives is far from a disaster.

In some ways it is..... although a Chiltern guard did once say this!!!!

But- hey. Clubmans are perfectly good. They are not Turbos or Networker Express Turbos, they are Turbosars. Ie- a lot better. They are very comfortable, have a reasonable speed, and have plenty of seats.

First class on a Thames Turbo is the same as second class on a Clubman- remember that!

FGW really need to realise that after so many broken promises commuters on the cotswold line are fed up with being at the bottom of the rolling stock cascade when the inevitable train breakdown occurs.

Absolutely. Hopfully the HST from EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) will help, although I suspect it will be sent to Bristol in the end.....