Are Turbos back to replace 180?

[whole diary]

[Andy W]

I've noticed an increase in Turbos recently.

Are the 180s now pretty much history & is the Cotswold line back to having a proportion of the trains reverting to Turbos?

In particular the 9.37 WOF - PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) appears to be a Turbo.

Does the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) hierarchy realise just how uncomfortable they are on a long run?

[Btline]

I've noticed an increase in Turbos recently.

Are the 180s now pretty much history & is the Cotswold line back to having a proportion of the trains reverting to Turbos?

In particular the 9.37 WOF - PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) appears to be a Turbo.

Does the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) hierarchy realise just how uncomfortable they are on a long run?

I am not surprised! The minute an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) on another service fails, the Cotswold line is the first to have a substitute train put in (i.e. a Thames Turbo)!

But I thought that FGW were keeping 3 180s for the time being, so there is no reason at all, why any service on the Cotswold Line should be operated by a Thames Turbo (unless it is the halts train).

Say no to a Thames Turbo !

[devon_metro]

Passenger numbers will be the reason. Probably the most lightly used services on the GW^▸ (Great Western) region (not ex Wessex)

[Btline]

Passenger numbers will be the reason. Probably the most lightly used services on the GW^▸ (Great Western) region (not ex Wessex)

That's only because the fares are so high- and no Firstminutefares!

[IanL]

HST^▸ (High Speed Train) replaced by 180 tonight, still seeing the Adelantes very (too)regularly.

[willc]

In particular the 9.37 WOF - PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) appears to be a Turbo.

That would be because this service is booked for a Turbo and has been since the start of the current timetable in December. As Devon Metro observes, passenger numbers at this time of day are low. Even an Adelante would be pretty empty, never mind an HST^▸ (High Speed Train).

[swlines]

You can generally identify which trains are not HST^▸ (High Speed Train) or Adelante in the online journey planners... the Turbo services aren't booked to have buffets! 

First Great Western
From: Worcester Foregate Street
To:   London Paddington

Worcester Foregate Street      ---   09:37 
Worcester Shrub Hill           09:39 09:40 
Pershore                       09:49 09:49 
Evesham                        09:56 09:58 
Honeybourne                    10:04 10:04 
Moreton-in-Marsh               10:17 10:18 
Kingham                        10:25 10:25 
Charlbury                      10:34 10:34 
Hanborough                     10:41 10:41 
Oxford                         10:58 11:00 
Reading                        11:25 11:26 
London Paddington              11:58 ---   


Notes

Operator: First Great Western

MC - First and standard class accommodation
RP - Seat reservations available

Whereas...

First Great Western
From: Great Malvern
To:   London Paddington

Great Malvern                  ---   11:06 
Malvern Link                   11:09 11:10 
Worcester Foregate Street      11:25 11:26 
Worcester Shrub Hill           11:29 11:31 
Pershore                       11:39 11:40 
Evesham                        11:48 11:49 
Honeybourne                    11:56 11:56 
Moreton-in-Marsh               12:08 12:13 
Kingham                        12:21 12:21 
Charlbury                      12:31 12:31 
Hanborough                     12:39 12:39 
Oxford                         12:58 13:00 
Reading                        13:25 13:27 
Slough                         13:40 13:41 
London Paddington              13:59 ---   


Notes

Operator: First Great Western


CB - Buffet service
MC - First and standard class accommodation
RP - Seat reservations available

[dog box]

I've noticed an increase in Turbos recently.

Are the 180s now pretty much history & is the Cotswold line back to having a proportion of the trains reverting to Turbos?

In particular the 9.37 WOF - PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) appears to be a Turbo.

Does the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) hierarchy realise just how uncomfortable they are on a long run?

Get yourself on the Barnstaple Branch on a 142 to DO uncomfortable

[Andy W]

In particular the 9.37 WOF - PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) appears to be a Turbo.

That would be because this service is booked for a Turbo and has been since the start of the current timetable in December. As Devon Metro observes, passenger numbers at this time of day are low. Even an Adelante would be pretty empty, never mind an HST^▸ (High Speed Train).

Thanks for the info guys - Swlines, I missed the timetable nuances.

Willc your comment regarding the Adelante misses the point - there are only 7 more seats in an Adelante than a Turbo. The idea of the Adelante is to give the customer a good level of comfort (2+2 rather than 2+3) plus buffet on longer journeys.

You're right about low levels of patronage - at that time of day Warwick - Marylebone can be bought from ^5, ^10 return (in comfortable trains) whereas there are no price incentives on FGW^▸ (First Great Western) - ^31.20 one way PSH - PAD, ^31.80 return.

If FGW want to build up the business they need to understand, price, comfort and reliability are paramount. Whilst reliability is as much a factor of notwork rail the first 2 are under FGW control.

I thought replacing the Turbos by Adelantes was part of a service improvement plan addressing the issue of comfort.

It's about customer satisfaction.

[Andy W]

I've noticed an increase in Turbos recently.

Are the 180s now pretty much history & is the Cotswold line back to having a proportion of the trains reverting to Turbos?

In particular the 9.37 WOF - PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) appears to be a Turbo.

Does the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) hierarchy realise just how uncomfortable they are on a long run?

Get yourself on the Barnstaple Branch on a 142 to DO uncomfortable

Thanks Dog box -  I thought the idea was to do comfortable !!!! Guess I blew it !!!

[willc]

Yes, Adelantes are more comfortable (and arguably a far more sensible train for most Cotswold services than an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) anyway), but the handful of Turbos that are out there on the route are the ones that are supposed to be. About the only Turbo stand-in I know of in recent weeks is the one last Sunday noted in another thread. See this link to the CLPG^» (Cotswold Line Promotion Group - about) site for more info on types of train booked for the various services on the route:

http://www.clpg.co.uk/newsDec%202007.htm

Even if the fares were dropped, I don't believe there is so much untapped demand out there on the Cotswold Line, in either direction, to justify yet another HST running near-empty out from London - even if one was available, which it clearly isn't, hence the Turbo on the 06.30/09.37.

And if you are paranoid about Turbos, why would you want to use Chiltern services? The Birmingham trains are operated by derivative of the Turbo! They may be marginally more comfortable than the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) lot, but the basic set-up is the same and not a match for an Adelante. And from Banbury or Bicester, there is a very good chance you will be on a real Turbo, in the shape of a 165, if the train starts at those stations.

As long as a few 180s are around, then the duty that covers the 05.42 from London to Worcester, 08.37 return and the 17.51 from London is the number one candidate for an Adelante substitute, if an HST is unavailable for some reason in London at 5.30am, because of passenger numbers west of Oxford in either direction - yes Ian, I know that an Adelante gets busy from Charlbury at 09.38, but I would rather have a train, of any kind, to use than having to drive into Oxford like I did yesterday, due to the train getting stuck on its outward journey.

That Adelantes keep appearing shows there is a clear need for that extra HST in the FGW fleet, but a 180 turning up is not a disaster, nor, actually, dare I say it, but here goes, is a lightly-loaded 166 Turbo with semi-functioning air-conditioning (that would be 166201 then).

As Dog Box observes, if you want real discomfort, try a railbus. I used to go to school on these in Yorkshire when they were new and they weren't any better then - when the first 150s appeared in the area they were a revelation by comparison.

[Andy W]

Yes, Adelantes are more comfortable (and arguably a far more sensible train for most Cotswold services than an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) anyway), but the handful of Turbos that are out there on the route are the ones that are supposed to be. About the only Turbo stand-in I know of in recent weeks is the one last Sunday noted in another thread. See this link to the CLPG^» (Cotswold Line Promotion Group - about) site for more info on types of train booked for the various services on the route:

http://www.clpg.co.uk/newsDec%202007.htm

Even if the fares were dropped, I don't believe there is so much untapped demand out there on the Cotswold Line, in either direction, to justify yet another HST running near-empty out from London - even if one was available, which it clearly isn't, hence the Turbo on the 06.30/09.37.

And if you are paranoid about Turbos, why would you want to use Chiltern services? The Birmingham trains are operated by derivative of the Turbo! They may be marginally more comfortable than the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) lot, but the basic set-up is the same and not a match for an Adelante. And from Banbury or Bicester, there is a very good chance you will be on a real Turbo, in the shape of a 165, if the train starts at those stations.

As long as a few 180s are around, then the duty that covers the 05.42 from London to Worcester, 08.37 return and the 17.51 from London is the number one candidate for an Adelante substitute, if an HST is unavailable for some reason in London at 5.30am, because of passenger numbers west of Oxford in either direction - yes Ian, I know that an Adelante gets busy from Charlbury at 09.38, but I would rather have a train, of any kind, to use than having to drive into Oxford like I did yesterday, due to the train getting stuck on its outward journey.

That Adelantes keep appearing shows there is a clear need for that extra HST in the FGW fleet, but a 180 turning up is not a disaster, nor, actually, dare I say it, but here goes, is a lightly-loaded 166 Turbo with semi-functioning air-conditioning (that would be 166201 then).

As Dog Box observes, if you want real discomfort, try a railbus. I used to go to school on these in Yorkshire when they were new and they weren't any better then - when the first 150s appeared in the area they were a revelation by comparison.

Hi Willc, thanks for your response.

I believe the Adelantes are ideal for the Cotswold line, they are just to small to cope with the Oxford / Reading commuters as well. For what it's worth I prefer them to the refurb HSTs but that's a matter of choice. I am an Adelante fan (am I unique?)

Regarding Chiltern, if you get on a Warwick Parkway you invariably get a 168 'Clubman'. The space and comfort is very similar to the Adelantes with many tables, laptop sockets etc. Your comments suggest you haven't actually been on one. By having a single class the 4 coach 168 has only 10 fewer seats than a 5 coach Adelante. Chiltern strengthen the trains a peak times running 6/7/8 coach formations. An 8 coach 168 has more seats than an HST and they're all 2+2. Their 165s are fully air conditioned so the windows are sealed and they have an element of 2+2 seating (which FGW charges 1st class for on the Turbo!). It is rare for those to run to Warwick Parkway anyway.

Turbos may be fine from Charlbury to Oxford, it's not on from Malvern to Paddington. Other trains being even more uncomfortable shows how little focus FGW has on the customer.

[Btline]

Yes, Adelantes are more comfortable (and arguably a far more sensible train for most Cotswold services than an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) anyway), but the handful of Turbos that are out there on the route are the ones that are supposed to be. About the only Turbo stand-in I know of in recent weeks is the one last Sunday noted in another thread. See this link to the CLPG^» (Cotswold Line Promotion Group - about) site for more info on types of train booked for the various services on the route:

http://www.clpg.co.uk/newsDec%202007.htm

Even if the fares were dropped, I don't believe there is so much untapped demand out there on the Cotswold Line, in either direction, to justify yet another HST running near-empty out from London - even if one was available, which it clearly isn't, hence the Turbo on the 06.30/09.37.

And if you are paranoid about Turbos, why would you want to use Chiltern services? The Birmingham trains are operated by derivative of the Turbo! They may be marginally more comfortable than the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) lot, but the basic set-up is the same and not a match for an Adelante. And from Banbury or Bicester, there is a very good chance you will be on a real Turbo, in the shape of a 165, if the train starts at those stations.

As long as a few 180s are around, then the duty that covers the 05.42 from London to Worcester, 08.37 return and the 17.51 from London is the number one candidate for an Adelante substitute, if an HST is unavailable for some reason in London at 5.30am, because of passenger numbers west of Oxford in either direction - yes Ian, I know that an Adelante gets busy from Charlbury at 09.38, but I would rather have a train, of any kind, to use than having to drive into Oxford like I did yesterday, due to the train getting stuck on its outward journey.

That Adelantes keep appearing shows there is a clear need for that extra HST in the FGW fleet, but a 180 turning up is not a disaster, nor, actually, dare I say it, but here goes, is a lightly-loaded 166 Turbo with semi-functioning air-conditioning (that would be 166201 then).

As Dog Box observes, if you want real discomfort, try a railbus. I used to go to school on these in Yorkshire when they were new and they weren't any better then - when the first 150s appeared in the area they were a revelation by comparison.

Hi Willc, thanks for your response.

I believe the Adelantes are ideal for the Cotswold line, they are just to small to cope with the Oxford / Reading commuters as well. For what it's worth I prefer them to the refurb HSTs but that's a matter of choice. I am an Adelante fan (am I unique?)

Regarding Chiltern, if you get on a Warwick Parkway you invariably get a 168 'Clubman'. The space and comfort is very similar to the Adelantes with many tables, laptop sockets etc. Your comments suggest you haven't actually been on one. By having a single class the 4 coach 168 has only 10 fewer seats than a 5 coach Adelante. Chiltern strengthen the trains a peak times running 6/7/8 coach formations. An 8 coach 168 has more seats than an HST and they're all 2+2. Their 165s are fully air conditioned so the windows are sealed and they have an element of 2+2 seating (which FGW charges 1st class for on the Turbo!). It is rare for those to run to Warwick Parkway anyway.

Turbos may be fine from Charlbury to Oxford, it's not on from Malvern to Paddington. Other trains being even more uncomfortable shows how little focus FGW has on the customer.

So what do you suggest? You have just said that Adelantes are ideal for the Cotswold line, but then said that they can't cope south of Oxford. It has got to be one or the other, unless you run Adelantes/Thames Turbos every hour from Oxford to Worcester, and then half hourly HSTs from Oxford to Paddington.

PS: I am not saying that this should happen!

[Mookiemoo]

Yes, Adelantes are more comfortable (and arguably a far more sensible train for most Cotswold services than an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) anyway), but the handful of Turbos that are out there on the route are the ones that are supposed to be. About the only Turbo stand-in I know of in recent weeks is the one last Sunday noted in another thread. See this link to the CLPG^» (Cotswold Line Promotion Group - about) site for more info on types of train booked for the various services on the route:

http://www.clpg.co.uk/newsDec%202007.htm

Even if the fares were dropped, I don't believe there is so much untapped demand out there on the Cotswold Line, in either direction, to justify yet another HST running near-empty out from London - even if one was available, which it clearly isn't, hence the Turbo on the 06.30/09.37.

And if you are paranoid about Turbos, why would you want to use Chiltern services? The Birmingham trains are operated by derivative of the Turbo! They may be marginally more comfortable than the FGW^▸ (First Great Western) lot, but the basic set-up is the same and not a match for an Adelante. And from Banbury or Bicester, there is a very good chance you will be on a real Turbo, in the shape of a 165, if the train starts at those stations.

As long as a few 180s are around, then the duty that covers the 05.42 from London to Worcester, 08.37 return and the 17.51 from London is the number one candidate for an Adelante substitute, if an HST is unavailable for some reason in London at 5.30am, because of passenger numbers west of Oxford in either direction - yes Ian, I know that an Adelante gets busy from Charlbury at 09.38, but I would rather have a train, of any kind, to use than having to drive into Oxford like I did yesterday, due to the train getting stuck on its outward journey.

That Adelantes keep appearing shows there is a clear need for that extra HST in the FGW fleet, but a 180 turning up is not a disaster, nor, actually, dare I say it, but here goes, is a lightly-loaded 166 Turbo with semi-functioning air-conditioning (that would be 166201 then).

As Dog Box observes, if you want real discomfort, try a railbus. I used to go to school on these in Yorkshire when they were new and they weren't any better then - when the first 150s appeared in the area they were a revelation by comparison.

Hi Willc, thanks for your response.

I believe the Adelantes are ideal for the Cotswold line, they are just to small to cope with the Oxford / Reading commuters as well. For what it's worth I prefer them to the refurb HSTs but that's a matter of choice. I am an Adelante fan (am I unique?)

Regarding Chiltern, if you get on a Warwick Parkway you invariably get a 168 'Clubman'. The space and comfort is very similar to the Adelantes with many tables, laptop sockets etc. Your comments suggest you haven't actually been on one. By having a single class the 4 coach 168 has only 10 fewer seats than a 5 coach Adelante. Chiltern strengthen the trains a peak times running 6/7/8 coach formations. An 8 coach 168 has more seats than an HST and they're all 2+2. Their 165s are fully air conditioned so the windows are sealed and they have an element of 2+2 seating (which FGW charges 1st class for on the Turbo!). It is rare for those to run to Warwick Parkway anyway.

Turbos may be fine from Charlbury to Oxford, it's not on from Malvern to Paddington. Other trains being even more uncomfortable shows how little focus FGW has on the customer.

So what do you suggest? You have just said that Adelantes are ideal for the Cotswold line, but then said that they can't cope south of Oxford. It has got to be one or the other, unless you run Adelantes/Thames Turbos every hour from Oxford to Worcester, and then half hourly HSTs from Oxford to Paddington.

PS: I am not saying that this should happen!

As a reg ..... off keep they can cope RDG^‡(resolve) to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)

Maybe 1/2 they get very busy ut I'd rather a 180 very busy than a turbo

[Andy W]

"So what do you suggest? You have just said that Adelantes are ideal for the Cotswold line, but then said that they can't cope south of Oxford. It has got to be one or the other, unless you run Adelantes/Thames Turbos every hour from Oxford to Worcester, and then half hourly HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) from Oxford to Paddington."

Hi Btline,

HST at peak and Adelantes off peak (which is what I thought the plan was)

Alternatively, at peak times I'd run 10 coach Adelantes to Oxford & split at Oxford on the down. I'd run 5 coach Adelantes to Oxford coupling up to 10 coach on the up. Off peak run 5 coach Adelantes.

I also think, at peak times, they should consider treating Reading / Slough like Virgin treat Watford, ie pick up only on the down, set down only on the up.

For what it's worth, now to be really unpopular, I don't think they should take bikes. As an alternative they could offer bike hire at Oxford / Paddington.