Labour could renationalise railways in five years

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

I know that not everyone in this forum uses Twitter, but for those that do/are able to, here's an interesting debate/thread from "Rail" magazine


https://twitter.com/RAIL/status/1043886719844659201

(Click on the box with Nick Brown's name)

Perfectly highlights the mistakes of the past. Woodhead closure, Serpell Report and the close call for the Settle & Carlisle, which all came under Tory administration.

It's interesting to note from that twitter thread that there's plenty of voices who disagree with Nick Brown's sentiment.

The most pertinent response being:

"Why, and what what possible causal link would this have for the action of any future state-owned operator? Political will of a future government is not, and cannot be, determined by action in the past..."

21st century nationalisation doesn't have to mean repeating the mistakes of the past.

[ellendune]

Whilst public finances are not directly comparable to a corner shop, IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) government spending financed from borrowing or by printing money should not be too excessive or inflation will result.

We do not want to end up like Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Argentina, and other workers paradises. All have suffered from rapid inflation.
It is an article of faith among the leaders of such countries that inflation is caused by wicked capitalist profiteers, and not by government policy.

Absolutely agree - though the question is always how much is too much.

However, the countries you quote though the economic crisis has had other probably more important factor factors such as corruption (Transparency International Publishes a Corruption Perception Index for 180 countries for 2017 it ranks Venezuela 169, Zimbabwe 157, though Argentina is only 85 - A high number means more Corrupt). So the argument about wicked capitalist profiteers may have some substance, though sometimes those saying such things may, paradoxically be the ones doing the profiteering!

[mjones]

While it is true that a future government could run the railways under different policies, it will still be difficult to make radically different investment decisions unless it is willing and able to challenge the Treasury and the transport appraisal methods used to inform those decisions.  Transport appraisal is supposed to be objective, so is regarded as the Truth, rather than being a matter of policy, which is why it is very hard to change  it. However, a lot of the assumptions within appraisal,  such as how lives saved by safety improvements, or values of time savings, involve decisions that are not scientific truths but involve value judgements about society's priorities, and are therefore very political.  Appraisal is a very useful tool when comparing similar kinds of schemes, but should not be our master when deciding what sort of society we want to live in.

[TaplowGreen]

Whilst public finances are not directly comparable to a corner shop, IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) government spending financed from borrowing or by printing money should not be too excessive or inflation will result.

We do not want to end up like Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Argentina, and other workers paradises. All have suffered from rapid inflation.
It is an article of faith among the leaders of such countries that inflation is caused by wicked capitalist profiteers, and not by government policy.

Absolutely agree - though the question is always how much is too much.

However, the countries you quote though the economic crisis has had other probably more important factor factors such as corruption (Transparency International Publishes a Corruption Perception Index for 180 countries for 2017 it ranks Venezuela 169, Zimbabwe 157, though Argentina is only 85 - A high number means more Corrupt). So the argument about wicked capitalist profiteers may have some substance, though sometimes those saying such things may, paradoxically be the ones doing the profiteering!

......or in the case of Venezuela, as our esteemed Shadow Chancellor suggested, they just weren't socialist enough! 

[ellendune]

While it is true that a future government could run the railways under different policies, it will still be difficult to make radically different investment decisions unless it is willing and able to challenge the Treasury and the transport appraisal methods used to inform those decisions.  Transport appraisal is supposed to be objective, so is regarded as the Truth, rather than being a matter of policy, which is why it is very hard to change  it. However, a lot of the assumptions within appraisal,  such as how lives saved by safety improvements, or values of time savings, involve decisions that are not scientific truths but involve value judgements about society's priorities, and are therefore very political.  Appraisal is a very useful tool when comparing similar kinds of schemes, but should not be our master when deciding what sort of society we want to live in.

Yes but that makes no difference whether it is private or public sector. They use the same assessment methods now. 

[ellendune]

......or in the case of Venezuela, as our esteemed Shadow Chancellor suggested, they just weren't socialist enough! 

Yes that is what the headline in the Daily Express (I know such a reliable newspaper) said, but if you actually read the article its says something quite different

Mr McDonnell said: “All the objectives of Chavez, in terms of tackling inequality, investing in education, developing people’s skills, would have been successful if they had mobilised the oil resources to actually invest in the long term and work with private sectors as well.

“I think in Venezuela they took a wrong turn, a not particularly effective path, not a socialist path.

"There are lessons to be learned on the mistakes all around."

Still it might not have sold as many papers if they had put that as a headline. And if they had been seen to suggest that John Macdonell was anything other than the personification of evil then would have lost their whole readership. 

[JayMac]

They are preaching to the converted though, so it's very easy to fool them.

[TaplowGreen]

......or in the case of Venezuela, as our esteemed Shadow Chancellor suggested, they just weren't socialist enough! 

Yes that is what the headline in the Daily Express (I know such a reliable newspaper) said, but if you actually read the article its says something quite different

Mr McDonnell said: “All the objectives of Chavez, in terms of tackling inequality, investing in education, developing people’s skills, would have been successful if they had mobilised the oil resources to actually invest in the long term and work with private sectors as well.

“I think in Venezuela they took a wrong turn, a not particularly effective path, not a socialist path.

"There are lessons to be learned on the mistakes all around."

Still it might not have sold as many papers if they had put that as a headline. And if they had been seen to suggest that John Macdonell was anything other than the personification of evil then would have lost their whole readership. 

Thanks for that - I'm sure it wasn't (both of your) intentions to come over as quite so patronising or to make assumptions about people based on their opinions/choice of newspaper, I know it's (depressingly) the "go to" argument for certain congregations these days however I don't read the Express. I do follow a range of media and I'm able to make up my own mind.

I've seen McDonnell's comments interpreted in the same way elsewhere (you will note my use of the word "suggested") and I interpreted his speech at Davos in the same way - that Chavez wasn't "socialist enough" as he didn't sufficiently institutionalise or embed what he was doing for the long term, and instead sustained short term populist policies & used the oil reserves as a piggy bank. Different interpretations are available elsewhere.

Ultimately of course, the money ran out. It was good (for some) while it lasted - Not uncommon in these scenarios. He'd probably have liked your corner shop analogy. . I'm sure the closed factories, & the empty clinics and schools are a great comfort to those poor souls who are now eating their pets.

I don't think that too many people regard McDonnell as the "personification of evil", that's rather melodramatic .most people are more sophisticated than you give them credit for, they understand nuance, and their opinions will vary along the scale.

I don't think he's "evil". He's an idealogue. That's not evil, just naive. That's in the economic sense of course, he does/has had a somewhat problematic attitude to terrorism, but that's par for the course in the Labour leadership these days, and not for here.

However I'm one of those people who trusts and respects others to have the intelligence to weigh up differing points of view and make up their own minds, rather than label them based on their choice of media.

The great thing about opinions of course is that everyone can have one! 

Have a great week.

[Red Squirrel]

Have a great week.

Just the other day I came across the phrase 'mic drop' - literally meaning 'to drop the microphone'. Apparently it's something that 'rappers', a kind of modern musician, do when they have performed a piece so perfectly that the microphone will no longer be necessary because all that is to be said on the subject has been said.

Sorry if this seems a bit ad hom, but "Have a great week" does sound a bit like a dropping the mic.

[TaplowGreen]

Have a great week.

Just the other day I came across the phrase 'mic drop' - literally meaning 'to drop the microphone'. Apparently it's something that 'rappers', a kind of modern musician, do when they have performed a piece so perfectly that the microphone will no longer be necessary because all that is to be said on the subject has been said.

Sorry if this seems a bit ad hom, but "Have a great week" does sound a bit like a dropping the mic.

I'm afraid I don't have a clue what you're talking about, but next time I'm in da 'hood with my homies I will ask them if they know any MCs who can enlighten me.............before the 5-0 turn up and we scatter, naturally.

(...............if it's singing you're referring to, I can assure you that most who have heard my efforts would be urging me to "drop the microphone", even before I pick it up)