Potential new services GWR could start?

[whole diary]

[CMRail]

There is a siding that can fit up to a nine car IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train), however ...

Nine?   Is there (going to be) a problem with 5 + 5?

As the bay plan has been aborted, just relay a second siding to the north of the station, the space is there where the run round loop was.

The bay platform would allow passengers to leave the incoming train, crew to switch ends, and new passengers to joint all at the same time.   Under current arrangement you have a five step serial process
1. Passengers off train
2. Trains moves to siding
3. Crew change ends
4. Train moves from siding
5. Passengers join train
all of which would make it impractical to run an hourly Swindon - Cheltenham Spa service with just two sets, each calling at Gloucester in one direction only.   Also make it impossible for passengers from Stroud to Gloucester to stay on train as it reversed.

Agreed but if faced with a guaranteed £1m relay siding or a £4m possible new platform what would you plump for ?

A member of Cheltenham staff said the siding was to small for the ten car when it was in testing. Apparently they won’t run any 5+5 anymore to Cheltenham due to Gloucester platform issues and other minor difficulties.

[grahame]

Agreed but if faced with a guaranteed £1m relay siding or a £4m possible new platform what would you plump for ?

I would look at the benefit / cost of both options, taking into account plans for services for future years, effect on delay when things aren't quite right or both options, differences in operating costs over the next n years ... if you're looking at 2 trains per hour from the Stroud Valley and one train an hour from the Welsh franchise, plus perhaps local trains every hour coming up from Bristol, the decision might be a different one to a service at half that level.

There isn't space to re-engineer the siding where it is to have a platform face offset up there, rather line platform 6 at Salisbury or indeed the double platform at Gloucester is there?

[broadgage]

In the longer term I can see various opportunities for new GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) services.

In the near term though the priority needs to be running the existing timetable properly, with enough full length trains including a reasonable reserve for breakdowns, and enough staff to run the full service even on a Sunday, again with a reasonable margin for sickness etc.

In the longer term, through trains to Butlins at Minehead are needed.
This is not as simple as it sounds since the existing Minehead station is too far from Butlins for those burdened with luggage and children.
A new, short branch line from the existing WSR into Butlins would be needed, together with a platform. All this is entirely doable, but far from cheap.
I suspect many Butlins customers would prefer a train directly into the site, to driving via very congested local roads.

That however must remain a future plan until existing services are working properly.
I cant imagine Butlins management being keen on the idea at present.
With good reason, Butlins management might fear that their train would be cancelled, diverted or half length.

[IndustryInsider]

Of all those mentioned, Stratford is the most likely IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion).  As ChrisB says, Chiltern have practically abandoned it when they were allowed to seek glories elsewhere, and I've always considered it a better match with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) anyway as it links London and a 'tourism trinity' of Windsor, Oxford and Stratford all on one route, well, almost in the case of Windsor.  Three or four tourism timed trains a day (Chiltern could keep their peak ones if they want them) would suffice.

Personally I can't see the Honeybourne link being restored any time soon, but there's nothing inherently wrong with the route via Leamington.

[martyjon]

Agreed but if faced with a guaranteed £1m relay siding or a £4m possible new platform what would you plump for ?

I would look at the benefit / cost of both options, taking into account plans for services for future years, effect on delay when things aren't quite right or both options, differences in operating costs over the next n years ... if you're looking at 2 trains per hour from the Stroud Valley and one train an hour from the Welsh franchise, plus perhaps local trains every hour coming up from Bristol, the decision might be a different one to a service at half that level.

There isn't space to re-engineer the siding where it is to have a platform face offset up there, rather line platform 6 at Salisbury or indeed the double platform at Gloucester is there?

Don't know where the proposed bay platform would be located but I assumed it would be located at the south end of the station utilising space where the long gone double track went Stratford way towards, from memory, Cheltenham Spa (Malvern Road) and Cheltenham Spa (St. James) stations and where the Royal Mail building was, it might still be there in another use. Is the trackbed of the defunct Kingham Branch trackbed still in railway ownership, I know there was a down loop there when I last took notice of the infrastructure there, there was even the boarded up shell of Cheltenham Lansdown Signal Box at the north end of the down loop there too.

[Andy]

I have taken a look at my own "list" of things I would see on the horizon.  In all cases, operational case, business case, local sentiment seem achievable - to bring not only new business that it can cope with to the railway, but also a wider economic benefit to the areas served and very little abstraction from other services - rather complementing other services (rail and road) into a network.

(Oxford and) Swindon to Solent (and Fawley).  http://atrebatia.info/swi_sol_201712_v11.pdf

Sewweb - Fast and regular train services connecting South Wales, North Somerset and the inner residential areas of Bristol with the Patchway, Aztec West and Westgate business areas of North Bristol.  http://www.sewweb.info/leaflet.pdf

Portishead (from Bristol)  http://www.passenger.chat/231

Okehampton (from Exeter) http://www.passenger.chat/2338

Tavistock (from Plymouth) http://www.passenger.chat/804

East - West Rail (Oxford, Bletchley, Bedford, etc) http://www.passenger.chat/1219

I couldn't agree more with this. In particular, I just can't see why a limited regular service to/from Okehampton hasn't been trialled already, either by GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) or even SWR^» (South Western Railway - about). And reinstatement to Tavistock seems to have been "in the pipeline" for an eternity already....it's all so frustrating!

For a long while, I felt that more through services between Penzance and St Ives could potentially be a winner, especially in the summer and possibly with a new halt at Marazion, but with plans for 2 tph on the Cornish mainline and the St Erth interchange, it makes less sense now. I do wonder whether a platform extension at St Ives might be necessary at some point, though.

[devonexpress]

I believe from what I interpreted at the far end of the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) franchise consultation that First Group have been instructed to look into the feasibility of a Okehampton to Exeter service, and how best to implement it so whether that will lead to anything who knows.  Surely with all the spare trains that seems to be coming around they couldn't just use one, put on a 2 or 3 hourly timetable, advertise it, and then run it for 3 to 6 months under a trail basis?  Im guess it would be too much red tape as per usual.


The Stratford services as I suggested is something GWR is being pressured to look at, although I do think serving Birmingham would be good too, mainly because I don't think HS2^▸ (The next High Speed line(s)) is going to happen anytime soon or at all, especially after Crossrails bad news.

Services to Minehead would be good, mainly because it removes the coach service from Taunton, and would allow more people to travel closer to Minehead, and then use the coaches as a shuttle service to Butlins, reducing road usage.

I also feel that a service to Kingswear would be beneficial, as it would link to the South Hams, Cruise ships in Dartmouth, the Navy College etc, even if it was a summer only service, or a special events service, such as when the Regatta is on, as long as the PDSR didn't lose any revenue because of it, It could help massively with parking issues in Dartmouth, and traffic around the local area on such a busy period. The only issue could be Greenaway Tunnel, but since IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train)'s have been cleared on the line to Pembroke Dock I can't see much of an issue.

I should state that my idea is not to make the modern GWR like the old GWR but to look at ways it can enhance its services, and play its part in reducing congestion on many roads which nearly always happens in the South West during the summer period.

[grahame]

I believe from what I interpreted at the far end of the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) franchise consultation that First Group have been instructed to look into the feasibility of a Okehampton to Exeter service, and how best to implement it so whether that will lead to anything who knows.  Surely with all the spare trains that seems to be coming around they couldn't just use one, put on a 2 or 3 hourly timetable, advertise it, and then run it for 3 to 6 months under a trail basis?  Im guess it would be too much red tape as per usual.

There is a huge difference on reporting on the feasibility of something and actually implementing what you find to be feasible and with a predicted good business case and community support.  Feasability study costs £££ but running it for a trial period, especially with a ramp up period, costs ££££££££££ (or perhaps a bit more even than that). And you can probably buy more votes per £ with studies than with a trial.    But it can be done (someone remind me of an example please ).

The trial service needs to be sufficient for people to be tempted to use it.  Its period needs to be long enough to give it a fair crack of the whip (try 3 years not 3 months).    And if much of your traffic is going to be life-changing for people, they need the assurance that they won't have to change life back at the end of the trial - i.e. there needs to be a planned and more or less guaranteed continuation after the trial is a success.   You need to be very careful of grey areas where the service does a very great deal for people, but does not get marked as a success, and be aware of what you'll do with the six to eight extra staff you'll have on the books if you end up "pulling" it after the trial.  Oh - I should also ask where they come from and who trains them in the first place ...

Can be done. Has been done. But "just" doesn't come into it!

[JayMac]

Services to Minehead would be good, mainly because it removes the coach service from Taunton, and would allow more people to travel closer to Minehead, and then use the coaches as a shuttle service to Butlins, reducing road usage.

It is a bus service, not coaches. Removing it takes away a bus service from Rowbarton and Staplegrove in Taunton, Pen Elm, Norton Manor Camp, Bishops Lydeard village, Crowcombe, Carhampton, Marsh Street, Alcombe and Minehead town centre. Residents in Williton, Watchet, Washford and Dunster could have a longer walk to just one station rather than a choice of bus stops.

I hope this is a logical reply and doesn't come across as cocky and rude.   It's okay to float ideas. It's equally okay to shoot them down if they aren't a practical solution, causing more problems than they solve. If you feel the response isn't okay then feel free to use the 'Report to moderator' button.

[MVR S&T]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K97206/2018/09/04/advanced

Trial for a Paddington to Southampton, with a 3rd rail shoe mod of course.......

[devonexpress]

Services to Minehead would be good, mainly because it removes the coach service from Taunton, and would allow more people to travel closer to Minehead, and then use the coaches as a shuttle service to Butlins, reducing road usage.

It is a bus service, not coaches. Removing it takes away a bus service from Rowbarton and Staplegrove in Taunton, Pen Elm, Norton Manor Camp, Bishops Lydeard village, Crowcombe, Carhampton, Marsh Street, Alcombe and Minehead town centre. Residents in Williton, Watchet, Washford and Dunster could have a longer walk to just one station rather than a choice of bus stops.

I hope this is a logical reply and doesn't come across as cocky and rude.   It's okay to float ideas. It's equally okay to shoot them down if they aren't a practical solution, causing more problems than they solve. If you feel the response isn't okay then feel free to use the 'Report to moderator' button.

Please let me clarify for you.  The idea is to take tourist passengers away from the local bus and the changeover, onto a direct train straight to the destination, something which most passengers want.   The bus service could continue, without having to use non DDA^» (Disability Discrimination Act - about) compliant coaches.

[JayMac]

Ah, I see. A complementary service. Very different to the 'replace' mentioned in the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter). 

[devonexpress]

Moving forward, maybe we should change the thread to 'potential new services or improvements to current services GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) could start'

[eightf48544]

The trial service needs to be sufficient for people to be tempted to use it.  Its period needs to be long enough to give it a fair crack of the whip (try 3 years not 3 months).    And if much of your traffic is going to be life-changing for people, they need the assurance that they won't have to change life back at the end of the trial - i.e. there needs to be a planned and more or less guaranteed continuation after the trial is a success.   You need to be very careful of grey areas where the service does a very great deal for people, but does not get marked as a success, and be aware of what you'll do with the six to eight extra staff you'll have on the books if you end up "pulling" it after the trial.  Oh - I should also ask where they come from and who trains them in the first place ...

Can be done. Has been done. But "just" doesn't come into it!

I agree with your comments. I moved to Taplow because it was in walking distance of the station and there was a reasonable although noisy journey to Pad (117s), although there was still a loco hauled fast to and from Pad in the peak although not at the time I wanted. Then the Turbos and now 387s there was a rocky patch when the Off Peak service was hourly although as i was working it just meant you had to time half days correctly, plus the Sunday service was withdrawn which hopefully will come back with Crossrail (whenever)

[broadgage]

Regarding transport to/from Minehead, there are in my view 3 different flows with very different needs.

Firstly, local residents making local trips to shops and other local facilities. The existing 28 bus needs to be retained and preferably improved for this market. A small minority could use trains on the West Somerset Railway as an alternative, but most journeys have one or both ends too far from a station for this to be viable for most passengers.

Secondly visitors from afar wanting a day on the beach at Minehead, or visiting for other reasons. Also Minehead residents visiting places on the national rail network.
This market is very poorly served by the existing bus because it is slow, unreliable, and subjectively getting worse.
A through train service between Minehead and the national network would be a very considerable improvement.

Thirdly the customers for Butlins holiday camp, such customers are very poorly served by the existing bus service which fails miserably to handle the numbers involved.
This market needs a through train service from Taunton AT LEAST, from London or Bristol would be better.
Minehead station is a bit too far from Butlins to walk with luggage, a shuttle bus could complete the journey very quickly, better still would be a dedicated Butlins station.
The existing bus is unusable by local residents on "bad Butlins days" since EVERY bus leaving Minehead will be full and standing with no question of anyone boarding at intermediate stops.