Potential new services GWR could start?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

I really MUST avoid my Crayonista tendencies ...  Minehead, Butlins - BMI ... short branch into 5 car platform that adjoins Butlins and also provides direct sea front access, allowing operation of an unstaffed station away from the heritage stuff.

Are your thoughts something like this, broadgage?



Train parks up there overnight ... and runs
... early service Minehead to Taunton and Bristol (commuters and extra capacity between Taunton and Bristol)
... Bristol to Taunton and Minehead (day trippers)
... Minehead to Taunton, Frome, Westbury, Pewsey, Bedwyn, Reading, London (Butlins departures)
... London to Minehead (more holidaymakers arrive; same stops as London outbound train)
... Minehead to Taunton and Bristol (shorter day trippers)
... Bristol to Taunton and Minehead (returning commuters)
... Minehead to Taunton (longer day trippers)
... Taunton to Minhead ('late train' for commuters who have had a longer day)
Set swap possible/probable at London
Only limited public service during the day while heritage trains are running
Elephant in room is suitable infrastructure and staff to run IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) at sensible speed and manning along the line

[broadgage]

Yes, I was thinking of something broadly similar to that.

I see no near term need to clear the Minehead branch for IETs^▸ (Intercity Express Train), HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) seem more realistic in the near term, these HAVE previously run to Minehead.
Also IETs might not be welcome on a heritage route, whilst HSTs ARE borderline heritage, the first ones ran only a few years after the end of BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) steam.

It should be possible to do at least 40MPH, an acceptable speed on the branch.

The Butlins line would probably have to be elevated about 2M above ground level for two reasons.
Firstly there is a small river and a public footpath between Butlins and the present line, the line would have to pass over the water and with enough clearance for pedestrians to walk along the footpath under the railway.

Secondly, the Butlins branch and platform, if at ground level would be a considerable impediment to pedestrians and vehicles moving around Butlins site. By elevating the track on an embankment or a bridge, pedestrians and cars can pass underneath.

[JayMac]

I see no near term need to clear the Minehead branch for IETs^▸ (Intercity Express Train), HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) seem more realistic in the near term, these HAVE previously run to Minehead.

Before Watchet station platform was reprofiled. HST cab steps need to be removed to run through now. Something HST drivers are reluctant to allow on safety grounds.

It should be possible to do at least 40MPH, an acceptable speed on the branch.

That would require an Act of Parliament. Increase the speed and provide regular scheduled services then you have to comply with much more stringent laws, regulations and safety legislation. Heritage railways costs are kept in check by only having to comply, operationally, with the spirit of the Light Railway Act 1896. Does the WSR bear any of the costs of obtaining necessary acts to increase line speed and comply with the the more stringent laws? Or are such costs borne entirely by Network Rail and the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)(s) who could, in this fanciful scenario, operate to Minehead.

Or do the West Somerset Railway sell up completely to Network Rail and just become tenants, operating when Network Rail give them permission?

[broadgage]

As HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) have previously run to Minehead, the works required at Watchet to again run to Minehead are presumably minor.

As regards 40MPH running, one might hope that HMG will change the rules and allow relatively modern stock to run at 40 MPH on certain heritage lines.
It could reasonably be argued that steel bodied, air braked stock with power operated doors or centrally locked slam doors, is no less safe at 40MPH than is older stock at 25MPH.

[Oxonhutch]

It is more the permanent way and signalling infrastructure that practically limits the line speed, rather than the rolling stock.

[Southernman]

You cannot have one train allowed to do 40mph on a heritage railway whilst the others are limited to 25mph! Its 40mph or 25mph. If the former then a vast expense on upgrading the track, signalling, staff training, maintenance and certification of the heritage set up will be required.

And really, what market (viability) actually exists outside summer Saturdays? And how do you find pathways for all these extra trains on a single line railway. As already mentioned the local traffic will continue to go by bus.

There has to be a simpler, cost effective solution! What is wrong with the extension of some Taunton terminators into Bishops Lydeard? Winners all round I would say and something that could be introduced relatively quickly.

[broadgage]

I don't see why some trains can not run at enhanced speeds on the longer and better equipped heritage lines, we do after all have differing speeds for different types of traction on the national network.

As for demand for rail travel to Minehead from the national network, in my view this is substantial on every day in the Summer season, and some demand exists all year.
As well as family holidays for a week or two weeks, Butlins host other large scale events outside of the holiday season.
Concerts, large religious gatherings and other events.
More such events seem likely if transport was easier.

Overseas air travel is becoming more expensive and less attractive due to rising oil prices and growing concerns regarding security.
Day trips and longer holidays within the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) are increasing in popularity.

[TaplowGreen]

As they would be the main beneficiary, perhaps Butlins could jointly fund it?

[broadgage]

As they would be the main beneficiary, perhaps Butlins could jointly fund it?

Yes I think that Butlins should contribute.
I doubt that Butlins management would be keen at present, looking at other GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) services, but that might change.

[TaplowGreen]

As they would be the main beneficiary, perhaps Butlins could jointly fund it?

Yes I think that Butlins should contribute.
I doubt that Butlins management would be keen at present, looking at other GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) services, but that might change.

They could have a knobbly knees competition en route!

[Dispatch Box]

Agreed but if faced with a guaranteed £1m relay siding or a £4m possible new platform what would you plump for ?

I would look at the benefit / cost of both options, taking into account plans for services for future years, effect on delay when things aren't quite right or both options, differences in operating costs over the next n years ... if you're looking at 2 trains per hour from the Stroud Valley and one train an hour from the Welsh franchise, plus perhaps local trains every hour coming up from Bristol, the decision might be a different one to a service at half that level.

There isn't space to re-engineer the siding where it is to have a platform face offset up there, rather line platform 6 at Salisbury or indeed the double platform at Gloucester is there?

Don't know where the proposed bay platform would be located but I assumed it would be located at the south end of the station utilising space where the long gone double track went Stratford way towards, from memory, Cheltenham Spa (Malvern Road) and Cheltenham Spa (St. James) stations and where the Royal Mail building was, it might still be there in another use. Is the trackbed of the defunct Kingham Branch trackbed still in railway ownership, I know there was a down loop there when I last took notice of the infrastructure there, there was even the boarded up shell of Cheltenham Lansdown Signal Box at the north end of the down loop there too.

Yes all still there, Plus the scruffy old Red Building now in use as a Gym,I Was told by Dispatch staff at one time, they were going to pull it down and provide a bay platform, but it will use some Carpark space,and they were waiting for the Gyms Lease to run out.

[JontyMort]

Agreed but if faced with a guaranteed £1m relay siding or a £4m possible new platform what would you plump for ?

I would look at the benefit / cost of both options, taking into account plans for services for future years, effect on delay when things aren't quite right or both options, differences in operating costs over the next n years ... if you're looking at 2 trains per hour from the Stroud Valley and one train an hour from the Welsh franchise, plus perhaps local trains every hour coming up from Bristol, the decision might be a different one to a service at half that level.

There isn't space to re-engineer the siding where it is to have a platform face offset up there, rather line platform 6 at Salisbury or indeed the double platform at Gloucester is there?

Don't know where the proposed bay platform would be located but I assumed it would be located at the south end of the station utilising space where the long gone double track went Stratford way towards, from memory, Cheltenham Spa (Malvern Road) and Cheltenham Spa (St. James) stations and where the Royal Mail building was, it might still be there in another use. Is the trackbed of the defunct Kingham Branch trackbed still in railway ownership, I know there was a down loop there when I last took notice of the infrastructure there, there was even the boarded up shell of Cheltenham Lansdown Signal Box at the north end of the down loop there too.

Yes all still there, Plus the scruffy old Red Building now in use as a Gym,I Was told by Dispatch staff at one time, they were going to pull it down and provide a bay platform, but it will use some Carpark space,and they were waiting for the Gyms Lease to run out.

I noticed last time I was waiting at Cheltenham - and when you do a lot of Worcester-Bristol return runs, as I do, you do a lot of waiting at Cheltenham - that they are enhancing the car park by removing the bank in the middle. But the bay platform idea for London terminators is dead, isn't it? That is a real shame, because at present a terminating HST^▸ (High Speed Train) from Paddington can take a very long time to clear the platform.

But to return to topic, an hourly Cheltenham-Worcester service would be good. Worcester to Bristol - hardly an eccentric journey - becomes two-hourly, even though the XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service is half-hourly.

Worcestershire Parkway might improve things in this respect - because at least it will be within taxi range even if there is no connection into a Cotswold - but then again it might not.

[ellendune]

Don't know where the proposed bay platform would be located but I assumed it would be located at the south end of the station utilising space where the long gone double track went Stratford way towards, from memory, Cheltenham Spa (Malvern Road) and Cheltenham Spa (St. James) stations and where the Royal Mail building was, it might still be there in another use. Is the trackbed of the defunct Kingham Branch trackbed still in railway ownership, I know there was a down loop there when I last took notice of the infrastructure there, there was even the boarded up shell of Cheltenham Lansdown Signal Box at the north end of the down loop there too.

Yes all still there, Plus the scruffy old Red Building now in use as a Gym,I Was told by Dispatch staff at one time, they were going to pull it down and provide a bay platform, but it will use some Carpark space,and they were waiting for the Gyms Lease to run out.

The scruffy not so old red building is IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly) the Royal Mail Building only built in the 1990's?

[simonw]

Why don't  they renovate Cheltenham station by lowering the track creating 4/6 full and terminating platforms below the current station.

The current station station could be converted into a public space, with access to the real station below.

I've no idea of the cost, but this would make Cheltenham much more useful and allow many more local services.

[grahame]

Why don't  they renovate Cheltenham station by lowering the track creating 4/6 full and terminating platforms below the current station.

The current station station could be converted into a public space to the real station below.

I've no idea of the cost, but this would make Cheltenham much more useful and allow many more local services.

£££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££,  I fear

How about an Arnos Grove arrangement - 3 platforms, 2 outer being for through trains, inner platform with train doors opening on both sides for terminators.   Too left field though?   Thought so!