The most incompetent Customer Service response ever?

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

A passenger who purchased an Off Peak Return from Southampton to London Terminals wanted to break their return journey at Reading. An Off Peak Return return portion is valid for one month. Break(s) of Journey (BoJ^▸ (Break of Journey)) are allowed on such a ticket, provided Off Peak time restrictions are adhered to and all travel is completed within the one month validity of the return portion.

Said passenger travelled up to London Paddington, spent the day in London, and then left London Paddington at 2230 to travel to Reading. They spent the night with friends in Reading with the plan to resume the journey back to Southampton the following day.

The following day, planning to catch the 1250 service from Reading to Southampton, their ticket didn't work the barriers. After discussion with barrier staff they were told the ticket was not valid and they'd need to buy a new ticket. Not fully understanding their BoJ rights they took the staff members word as correct and bought the new ticket.

On subsequently checking their BoJ rights under the National Rail Conditions of Travel they realised they were given incorrect information and had unnecessarily spent more money on a ticket that wasn't needed.

This passenger complained to GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), enclosed copies of the tickets, and requested a refund in respect of the additional ticket they were required, in error, to purchase.

This is the reply from GWR:

The rules of a return ticket

If you purchase a return ticket within a month of return then yes you can come back anytime.

However if on the return journey you do decide to stop off and then travel again the next day then your ticket will not be valid.

The reason is you have already completed your 1st part of the journey going to your destination; your return journey is back to where ever you decide to get off the train.

In your case it was at Reading, so as far as the ticket goes your return journey was complete.

So the member of staff at Reading Station was right in what he advised you to do.

In rule with our Passenger Charter only 2 journeys are allowed on a (Month) return ticket whether it is the same day or 3 weeks later with the same ticket, as soon as you leave the train and exit the station your return journey is over.

As you decided to split your journey the return ticket does not cover this.

Thanks again for getting in touch

I hope this explains the rules of a return ticket– and that next time you travel with us you have a better trip.

Yours Sincerely

********
Customer Support Advisor

That is one of the most incompetent responses I've ever seen from from a GWR CSA. Truly staggering. The NRCoT have clearly been breached by the original advice given at Reading. And that breach has been compounded by the stupidest, most clueless reply from Customer Services.

The BoJ condition on the return portion of an Off Peak Return is one of the simplest rights afforded to passengers for staff to understand. That both a gateline staffer and a CSA do not understand said rule is shocking. No doubt an ineptitude fostered by woeful training and zero management oversight.

This adviser has referred to some non existent rules in the GWR Passenger Charter. That document is silent on BoJ rules. These are codified in the National Rail Conditions of Travel. Said conditions can not be overridden by anything in a Passenger Charter. And certainly not overridden by rules made up by staff.

The Break of Journey conditions:

16. General conditions applying to Tickets

16.1 The Conditions in this section apply to ordinary train Tickets, but may vary for individual products, especially discount and promotional Tickets. The conditions and any exclusions applying to these will be explained when you buy those Tickets.

16.2 Most Tickets allow you to break your journey. This means that you do not have to make the whole of your journey at the same time or, where allowed, on the same day.

6.3 Where a break of journey is allowed, there is no limit to the number of times that you can do so within a Ticket’s period of validity, until the journey is completed.

I've recently started a new job that has many company processes to follow. I don't yet know them all. What I don't do if a customer interaction has to follow a process or rule is just make things up as I go along. I ask a superior. That's patently not happened in this case. Rules have been made up because of a lack of training. Rules have been made up because front line staff haven't been trained to ask. Ultimately this is management incompetence.

[ChrisB]

That is awful. I hope it has been escalated?

[chuffed]

Not just escalated. Vertical take off to the man at the top....if he can be found. Then, hopefully cascaded back down the line to everyone who needs to know. Not holding my breath, tho.

[grahame]

Gobsmacked!

I attended a Rail Delivery Group meeting on the Easier Fares consultation last month, and the big thing that strikes me is that if and when fare systems are revised, there is a need for the passenger to be able to trust the professional to get it right and be fair.     We still have a very, very long way to go, don't we?

[Surrey 455]

I can understand the passengers acceptance of what he was told. I am aware (but only because of this forum) that breaks of journey are permissible but I am surprised to learn that a break of journey on the return portion can be had continuing on a different day!
I must start planning a few days multi-trip somewhere...

[grahame]

I can understand the passengers acceptance of what he was told. I am aware (but only because of this forum) that breaks of journey are permissible but I am surprised to learn that a break of journey on the return portion can be had continuing on a different day!
I must start planning a few days multi-trip somewhere...

With routings and break of journeys, quite amazing what you can do.

Three old journeys (which I will repeat as there are many new members)

Live, Melksham. 2 days of work in Manchester followed by 3 in Leicester, staying away
Ticket: Westbury to Manchester via London return
Challenges from staff:  not one!

Live, Melksham.  2 days work in Central London, 3 in Farnborough, Hants, commuting
Ticket: Melksham (I think it was) to London weekly season.
Challenges from staff:  one, gateline, Farnborough Main. Backed off when it was clear I was all worked out and told him where Melksham was.

Live, Melksham. 5 days work at Llanshamlet, wanting trip out via Craven Arms
Ticket: Melksham to Llanwrtyd Wells return.
Challenges from staff: none but a REALLY grumpy crew from Llandrindod to Swansea (perhaps I only noticed because the Craven Arms to Llandrindod crew were so nice)

Savings in all three cases over what was recommended by National Rail Enquiries - Massive

These work for places other than Melksham - just happens I've lived in Melksham for even longer than the forum has been running!

[JayMac]

An update on the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter).

The tale was originally told over on RailUK Forums. Someone there with connections at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) raised the issue at a high level and it has been quickly resolved. The person who brought the tale to RailUK posted this today:

Hello again everybody.

Just wanted to give everyone a final update on the outcome of my case with GWR.

Not long after sending my second email to GWR, after receiving that rather odd and misinformed reply from a customer service rep, I was messaged by a forum member who put me in direct contact with someone at the top of GWR. That particular member of staff personally looked into my case and has refunded me the £20.30 I had to pay to get home, plus given me 2 return tickets to anywhere on the GWR network; at any time, on any date, within the next 12 months. I was also told that the incorrect Break of Journey advice I was given would be raised as a future training issue.

Although it has been frustrating, this incident has ended in the best possible way. I want to thank everyone on this forum, without you guys I would've merely accepted what I was told as gospel and would've been £20 out of pocket. I now have the confidence that should I find myself in a situation like this again, I will know I am on the right side of the law and I wont let anyone tell me otherwise.

I have been assured by the forum member that helped me that if anyone else has any really serious issues with GWR, they will spot it and will pass the relevant thread link on to the person at GWR and will make direct contact and intervention if the GWR staff member agrees it merits it.

Thanks again everyone.

The right result, and in a timely fashion.

Sometimes it's not what you know, but who you know. Top marks to the forum member concerned for passing on details to someone with a bit of clout at GWR.

I have my doubts though that the training issue will be properly addressed. Staff at Capita (GWR's customer service provider) and on the front line are only as good as their immediate managers. It is at that grade where the real problems lie.

[SandTEngineer]

Crikey BNM.  When you included that word CAPITA I nearly spat out my drink of coffee.  I'm having a bit of a battle with them at present over a pension issue, and its like 'drawing teeth' with them.  Good example: They moved my pension control office from Sheffield to Glasgow and didn't tell any of the pensioners they are responsible for.  Excellent 10 out of 10 customer service there then.....

[JayMac]

I have been assured by the forum member that helped me that if anyone else has any really serious issues with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), they will spot it and will pass the relevant thread link on to the person at GWR and will make direct contact and intervention if the GWR staff member agrees it merits it.

This part is interesting. An acknowledgement perhaps that things are not as GWR's higher management would wish with regard to their customer service provision. But then, anyone with half a brain would know that outsourcing to Capita was only good for one thing. Costs. Actual customer service, to a decent standard, is not what you get with Capita.

I can concur with SandTEngineer that their pension services provision is also woeful. One of my late stepfather's private pensions is managed by Capita on behalf of the employer. Problems with the spousal provision for my Mum are still ongoing, over a year after my stepfather passed away. it's not a huge amount of monthly income, but dealing with Capita has been fraught for Mum.

[ellendune]

I can concur with SandTEngineer that their pension services provision is also woeful. One of my late stepfather's private pensions is managed by Capita on behalf of the employer. Problems with the spousal provision for my Mum are still ongoing, over a year after my stepfather passed away. it's not a huge amount of monthly income, but dealing with Capita has been fraught for Mum.

My experience also - it took 9 months to actually get the pension I am entitled to after endlessing calling Sheffield. 

[ChrisB]

I'm sure that the use of Capita by GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) was driven by their parent company - maybe GWR management had no say.

[froome]

Capita are just about to take over running Royal Mail's pension service, which I have a work pension with. 

[SandTEngineer]

Capita are just about to take over running Royal Mail's pension service, which I have a work pension with. 

Good luck with that then.  The clocks been ticking on trying to get mine for nearly 5 months now....

[Fourbee]

Capita are just about to take over running Royal Mail's pension service, which I have a work pension with. 

Good luck with that then.  The clocks been ticking on trying to get mine for nearly 5 months now....

I have helped complete the paperwork to set up annuities for two people now. I felt both took an inexplicably long time from initial paperwork to the first payment being made and that was about 3 months each.

This might be useful (you need to complain to the organisation concerned first before referral, which I would personally be doing now):
https://www.pensions-ombudsman.org.uk/our-service/make-a-complaint/

***

They seem equally efficient with the handling of personal data at their TV licensing operation:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/09/06/tv_licensing_https_fail/

[Bmblbzzz]

What really struck me as a "wtf" was this:

If you purchase a return ticket within a month of return then yes you can come back anytime.

However if on the return journey you do decide to stop off and then travel again the next day then your ticket will not be valid.

The reason is you have already completed your 1st part of the journey going to your destination; your return journey is back to where ever you decide to get off the train.

In your case it was at Reading, so as far as the ticket goes your return journey was complete.

So you return journey is not back to your point of departure, apparently...