165/166s on this route

[whole diary]

[devonexpress]

Personally I would rather see new trains or West Midlands Railway ordering new trains and the Class 172s being transferred to the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) region.  Ideally though some form of Intercity 4 or 5 car unit is needed on Portsmouth to Cardiff, maybe more Castle Class HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train)?

Not enough around, hopefully whoever takes the next franchise will offer to order some new rolling stock, and maybe DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) could electrify some more areas.

WMR Have 27 of them, and are gaining all LO units so in total 35 units. From what im aware Cardiff to Portsmouth requires 6 units?  That leaves 29 units, left for other routes. Of course if Intercity style trains where brought onto P-C that would allow the 172s to be used on other routes, such as branchlines around Bristol, or replace all the Class 150s in the Devon/Cornwall region.

[CMRail]

Personally I would rather see new trains or West Midlands Railway ordering new trains and the Class 172s being transferred to the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) region.  Ideally though some form of Intercity 4 or 5 car unit is needed on Portsmouth to Cardiff, maybe more Castle Class HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train)?

Not enough around, hopefully whoever takes the next franchise will offer to order some new rolling stock, and maybe DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) could electrify some more areas.

WMR Have 27 of them, and are gaining all LO units so in total 35 units. From what im aware Cardiff to Portsmouth requires 6 units?  That leaves 29 units, left for other routes. Of course if Intercity style trains where brought onto P-C that would allow the 172s to be used on other routes, such as branchlines around Bristol, or replace all the Class 150s in the Devon/Cornwall region.

Was speaking about the castle sets, my mistake.

It seems like a good short term solution although it would be great to see some new West specific new rolling stock right down to Devon and Cornwall.

[devonexpress]

Personally I would rather see new trains or West Midlands Railway ordering new trains and the Class 172s being transferred to the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) region.  Ideally though some form of Intercity 4 or 5 car unit is needed on Portsmouth to Cardiff, maybe more Castle Class HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train)?

Not enough around, hopefully whoever takes the next franchise will offer to order some new rolling stock, and maybe DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) could electrify some more areas.

WMR Have 27 of them, and are gaining all LO units so in total 35 units. From what im aware Cardiff to Portsmouth requires 6 units?  That leaves 29 units, left for other routes. Of course if Intercity style trains where brought onto P-C that would allow the 172s to be used on other routes, such as branchlines around Bristol, or replace all the Class 150s in the Devon/Cornwall region.

Was speaking about the castle sets, my mistake.

It seems like a good short term solution although it would be great to see some new West specific new rolling stock right down to Devon and Cornwall.

Oh right,  Plenty of spare HST coming available from 2020 which could be converted and used on the route.  5 Coaches, with good bicycle spaces, and the buffet car with 30 ish First Class seats.

[JayMac]

Such spare HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) would need to join the queue for the necessary modifications to comply with disability and accessibility legislation. Said modifications taking longer than planned due to the amount of corrosion on the Mk3s. There's a long queue already, modifying sets for ScotRail, CrossCountry and GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s 'Castle' HSTs.

The 40 year old HST fleet is knackered after its intensive use in front line service. That's why it's taking so long to modify them. The time taken and costs involved are almost on a par with new build.

Unfortunately we have a government and industry that seems to think that its okay to fund short term solutions (HST life extension, Class 230, Class 769...) in England rather than order and build appropriate new stock. Unless its for London, the South East or to appease Tory marginals in the North.

Rolling stock needs are not being driven by what is actually required. Instead it is the RoSCo's offering up ever fanciful 'solutions' for their aging and knackered fleets in an effort to earn a few more million quid from them. The RoSCo's then promise the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) and TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) quick fixes which are anything but.

HSTs are not the answer for Cardiff-Portsmouth. Neither are hand-me-down Turbos. But that's what we've got to put up with until the short-termist policy changes. At the earliest that will be when the GWR franchise is retendered sometime this century. New build appropriate inter-regional stock is what should be ordered. There's plenty of appropriately designed stock to chose from, from a very healthy competitive rolling stock manufacturing industry.

[paul7575]

I reckon Portsmouth - Cardiff has 8 trains in the cycle.
For example the 0823 departure gets back from its round trip in time to form the 1623.
 
Paul

[grahame]

I reckon Portsmouth - Cardiff has 8 trains in the cycle.
For example the 0823 departure gets back from its round trip in time to form the 1623.
 
Paul

That is the number I have seen quoted from official source too - together with a note that you really need 9 units to allow one to be away for heavy maintenance etc.

[devonexpress]

I reckon Portsmouth - Cardiff has 8 trains in the cycle.
For example the 0823 departure gets back from its round trip in time to form the 1623.
 
Paul

That is the number I have seen quoted from official source too - together with a note that you really need 9 units to allow one to be away for heavy maintenance etc.

So a choice of 9 Class 172s or 9 (4 or 5 car) HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s with a small first class, trolley service and plenty of seats, I know what id go for.   I think St Philip Marsh is staying open, so with the current 11 Castle sets planned for Cardiff to Penzance, St Philips Marsh could be a day to day maintenance for both fleets and swapping the Portsmouth HSTs onto Devon services so they can get a full service at Laira?

[grahame]

So a choice of 9 Class 172s or 9 (4 or 5 car) HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s with a small first class, trolley service and plenty of seats, I know what id go for. 

Two hypothetical options at present - though goodness only knows what bidders will suggest / offer in future franchise bids.

I think I would prefer to see a wider overview than putting a group of trains in place for a specific route - start with the premise the "we need 3 sets of trains - intercity, regional and local" and run multiple routes from each of the three pools.  That allows for a more robust service with sets being swappable between routes, a team of maintenance engineers who are more familiar with less types making them more effective, and the prospect of holding a higher number of fewer types of spare parts - again good for both efficiency and cost. 

[devonexpress]

Two hypothetical options at present - though goodness only knows what bidders will suggest / offer in future franchise bids.

 

"we need 3 sets of trains - intercity, regional and local" and run multiple routes from each of the three pools. 

Which we would of had when electrification was completed on time and on budge, oh wait ,

a team of maintenance engineers who are more familiar with less types making them more effective, and the prospect of holding a higher number of fewer types of spare parts - again good for both efficiency and cost. 

On balance I completely agree with you Grahame, but sadly the railways are in more of a mess now then back in 2015 when the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) brand was rolled out especially rolling stock wise.

Personally I never got why we lost those 150s and 158s during the Wessex Trains era, would it not have been better to send the 153s, 143s away, and get 150 and 158s back, allowing for a common fleet in the West area, then inject a load of money to replace all the pacers in the North and Wales, Instead it's taken another 12 years to get fairly close. Whilst the Castle HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s aren't perfect they do have several things going for them such a reliability, comfort, cleared gauging along the whole route from Cardiff to Portsmouth as far as im aware. In terms of parts everything for them is scratch built and has been for many years now, whilst it has been reported about corrosion issues on the doors it can be fixed, it just depends how much money GWR and the leasing company want to spend.  Effectively, new floor beams, doors, reskin of the roof and body panels, a good interior tidy up, you could make them last another 10 - 15 years maybe longer its all a question of how much money they want to spend and for how long.


Edit just to fix quoting - Grahame

[Adelante_CCT]

WMR Have 27 of them, and are gaining all LO units so in total 35 units. From what im aware Cardiff to Portsmouth requires 6 units?  That leaves 29 units, left for other routes

Class 172s are only 2 or 3 coaches long, surely you would want them doubled up otherwise capacity would be reduced from what it is today?

[CMRail]

It took four minutes at Bath Spa to board the 158 and you can see the extra two carriages are needed.

[paul7575]

...Whilst the Castle HST^▸ (High Speed Train)'s aren't perfect they do have several things going for them such a reliability, comfort, cleared gauging along the whole route from Cardiff to Portsmouth as far as I’m aware.

All except for the direct line between St Denys and Fareham via Netley.  Problems exist for HST power cars with the bridges.  People usually reckon it’s the girder bridges.

Paul

[tramway]

Yes, 9 sets was the figure I remember from several years ago. And the 172/9's for the route would have been corridor ends. They would have had to build more of them in the intervening period after being first mooted.

Not sure which HST^▸ (High Speed Train) power car type has the Short Swing Link for use over third rail that would get them to Pompey as an enlarged Castle fleet.

You probably wouldn't need the second power car on the longer distances and just have it as a DVT^‡(resolve) and save weight.How many mainline registered 31's are there still about, might be cheaper to reengine a few of those and nice comfy Mk 2 stock with tables.

[paul7575]

The Short Swing Links are a variant of the Mk3 carriage bogies and nothing at all to do with the power cars.

Paul

[Clan Line]

Got the 0946 from Warminster to Salisbury this morning. Train re-hashed inside and out. Nice new dark blue carpet, lovely re-upholstered & re-cushioned comfy (4 abreast) seats with red/orange fabric, aircon working (as usual), everything gleaming clean..............heaven ! Of course it wasn't GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) - this was the SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) service to Waterloo.