Future fare system - what elements should it include?

[whole diary]

[martyjon]

In the case to which I refer, I had not only paid the full first class fare but had also booked a seat and had taken my booked seat, but was still asked to stand by the train manager in order that a mother and baby could have two seats.

More fool you. I would have made the mother sit next to me and have the baby on her lap or if the baby was in a carry cradle have that on her lap or on the table. Not being "flush enough" to afford First Class travel, I would have, in your circumstances, demanded the train manager give me a signed written note to customer services to confirm he had asked you to vacate you reserved seat and the reason why and used that to justify your request for a part refund and if still refused same taken the matter to the small claims court. It is surprising how a small claims court ruling suddenly wakes up big organisations, I once had a dispute over a £12 car park charge which the operator claimed was an old ticket as the strong sun had bleached the print on the ticket and the ticket must have been old for it to be so badly bleached. The part of the print which had not been bleached had the ticket number still legible and despite my telling the operator to check the date on which that ticket number was dispensed, they refused. Made online small claims court claim, duplicate £12 taken from my current account, £25 small claims court fee, 3 X £14 cost of my time preparing letters to parking company, 3 X £2.90 guaranteed delivery of letters, 21 X 10p for photocopying, total £89.80p. Had a letter from the parking company after the small claims court action started enclosing a cheque for £15 and stating that they had considered the case again and the cheque was in full and final settlement of the matter and enclosed a proforma for me to sign and return stating that I had accepted their settlement. No way, I returned their cheque with an accompanying letter, the small claims court ruled in my favour and the £89.80p was paid in full.

If more people started to use the small claims court to claim against rail companies then pigs might fly, seriously though, something might get done, take JourneyCheck snapshot and if the train you are travelling on is 5 instead of 10 and your reserved seat is in the missing 5, claim, If your train is described as full and standing and First Class is declassified and you have a First Class ticket, even able to sit in the reserved seat, claim. I could go on now I'm wound up but this is going off tangent on this thread and the pub is beckoning for my Sunday lunchtime pint or two.

[broadgage]

On local trains or shorter journeys for which seat reservations are not available, I agree that one should consider giving up a seat for someone less able.

On a longer distance service for which one has paid a lot of money and booked a seat, I am now more reluctant to stand.
Whilst some would say "of course you should still stand for children, elderly, and other deserving cases"
That is in effect saying that someone like myself should NEVER take a seat on say the 19-03 from Paddington. There are ALLWAYS standing passengers on that service, at least in the summer, and there will ALLWAYS be among those standing some who consider that they need a seat. (Or two seats for a parent and young child)

I am opposed to air travel due to the fuel used and environmental damage done, but one can see the attraction of air versus rail.
I have never heard of an airline expecting a customer to stand in order that a parent and child may have two seats for one ticket.

[grahame]

On local trains or shorter journeys for which seat reservations are not available, I agree that one should consider giving up a seat for someone less able.

On a longer distance service for which one has paid a lot of money and booked a seat, I am now more reluctant to stand.

If you have a booked seat and are occupying it, that should be the end of the story.

You will of course always be able to find exceptional circumstances where you might want to get out of the way.

[TaplowGreen]

. 'Full fare' does not equal guaranteed seat. Never has. Unless you make a reservation.

………….and even that is becoming less and less of a guarantee!

[Richard Fairhurst]

It would seem that having a child not only gets two seats for the price of one, but also overrides a booking.

That's not "having a child", that's "being a muppet". If I were on a train with Sebastian in this scenario, he'd be on my lap. (Although he'd rather be looking out the droplights in the vestibules... clearly an apprentice rail enthusiast.)

[JayMac]

I'd consider myself a muppet if I gave up my reserved 1st Class seat to a passenger without a reservation. A TM^‡(resolve) asking me to move for a mother and under five to occupy two seats is not a reasonable request, and I say so. I'd happily let mum and under five sit next to me though.

[broadgage]

In retrospect, I DO consider myself to have been a "a bit of a muppet" for complying with the train managers request.
If the situation was to arise again, I would be inclined to stand my ground. This may sound harsh, but on a popular train there will always be someone deserving standing.

It is in fact less likely that the situation will recur, for several reasons.

Firstly, I travel less than in the past.
Secondly I have become very selective about travel dates, avoiding Fridays, Thursdays, and days near holiday weekends or special events.
And finally I avoid IEPS so far as possible since reservations seem to be seldom honoured. I cant avoid the wretched DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) forever of course, but presumably they will eventually be full length and have reservations.

[grahame]

In my mailbox this morning from Raileasy / Trainsplit

Do you want Trainsplit to stay? Take this survey if so!

Rail Delivery Group Fares Consultation

The Rail Delivery Group have begun an 'easier fares' consultation where they want the public to complete a survey to help them design a new fares structure.
 
We believe letting train operators get more control over fares is the equivalent of "letting a fox run the hen house” as someone commented on Times Online. It should be noted the fares Train Companies control have increased at 5 times the rate of Government controlled, regulated fares.
 
As you know, we are always championing our split ticketing site, Trainsplit, which has saved 700,000 customers an additional £11.5 million in split ticket savings since March 2015.
 
We don't want the fares consultation to affect savings our customers are finding. There is also no way through fares can go down to split ticketing levels or close to them because they do say there might be some increases for people who currently split and the whole exercise remains "revenue neutral".
 
So if you want Trainsplit to continue to save people money, we would appreciate you taking the time to fill out the survey and in particular the question in regards to Split ticketing which we ask you to answer as 'Do Not Consider'.

[eXPassenger]

Grahame

What a surprise from a vested interest in the current complexity.

They do however make a valid point that in any change of this size the screams of the losers will overwhelm the purrs of the winners.

[JayMac]

Exactly the answer I gave in the consultation without being prompted by a vested interest.

Attempts to iron out split ticket savings will result in fares increases either side of the split. Those making the savings by possessing a little knowledge are far outnumbered by those who buy the point to point tickets. Lose/lose.

I too urge anyone who has not already completed the consultation to answer the split ticketing question with 'Do not consider'.

My great fear with this consultation is it has been worded such that the outcome is predetermined. The DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) and Rail Delivery Group can then dress up fares increases by saying its what passengers wanted. I'm of the growing opinion that this consultation is a smokescreen for reducing government farebox subsidy even further.

[grahame]

Grahame

What a surprise from a vested interest in the current complexity.

Indeed.   However, I'm inclined to think that the elimination of savings on ticket splits should not be a consideration in its own right (whether or not you like the practise), but rather it would naturally be reduced through so many other changes that should be considered.


Paddington to Cardiff single on the 08:45 - £117.10; on the 09:15, £62.20 - the difference between peak and off peak fares.  But why on earth should you be expected to pay a peak fare for the Swindon to Cardiff leg of the journey on the 08:45 when the peak has passed?    Better £66.80, peak, London to Swindon and £21.80 off peak Swindon to Cardiff - total fair fare £88.60 .... but the problem is how you come up with a ticket regime to do that calculation for you automatically.  Such a splitting of fares seems only fair, and surely it's far better to come up with a proper system that eliminates the need to muck around rather that setting out to eliminate a facility.

[eXPassenger]

Paddington to Cardiff single on the 08:45 - £117.10; on the 09:15, £62.20 - the difference between peak and off peak fares.  But why on earth should you be expected to pay a peak fare for the Swindon to Cardiff leg of the journey on the 08:45 when the peak has passed?    Better £66.80, peak, London to Swindon and £21.80 off peak Swindon to Cardiff - total fair fare £88.60 .... but the problem is how you come up with a ticket regime to do that calculation for you automatically.  Such a splitting of fares seems only fair, and surely it's far better to come up with a proper system that eliminates the need to muck around rather that setting out to eliminate a facility.

So the solution to this would be for the fare engine to always, automatically, calculate the effect of split tickets and apply them as necessary.

This will significantly reduce overall revenue when the change should be revenue neutral.

[grahame]

Poll result / comment at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=19894.msg243639#msg243639

[Bmblbzzz]

I missed this poll when voting was still open, but I have something to add on over-5s travelling free, from a parent's perspective: some staff don't want to sell child tickets. In fact, IME^▸ (in my experience) quite a lot of staff don't. Two examples, five years and a hundred miles apart:
Severn Beach line
"One adult and one child return to Stapleton Road, please."
"Is he under five?"
"He's six."
Looks at me seriously. "Let's try again. Is he (nod) under (nod) five? (nod)"

London Underground. The child above is now 11. I can't see how to get a child option on the machine. Ask gate staff. "Oh, he's ten, he can travel free."

[Bmblbzzz]

And perhaps that's another factor that might be taken into account; should the age at which children require tickets and the age at which they become adult for ticket purposes be levelled across the country and all modes of transport?