Incident at Loughborough Junction, South London. Three dead. 18/6/2018

[whole diary]

[broadgage]

Pictures on line, which I do not feel it helpful to quote or repeat, show the scale of the vandalism done by the gang to trains and other property.

I for one wont be mourning the loss of three prolific criminals.

I am of course very sorry for the railway staff, emergency services workers, and others affected by this, but for the culprits themselves, just desserts IMO^▸ ('in my opinion').

[JayMac]

I for one wont be mourning the loss of three prolific criminals.

You're a criminal if you're convicted. Do we know that any of these three had a criminal record? Let alone being prolific criminals. I'd prefer to say, based only social media postings about them, that they may have been persistent law breakers.

They were breaking the law (very distinct from being a criminal - innocent until proved guilty) and have paid a heavy price. I have sympathy for them as their 'punishment' has been way beyond that usually given for the laws they were breaking.

Of course I have sympathy for their families and friends too. And for the driver of the train who is now having to come to terms with the news. That will weigh heavily, although it would appear that this driver was unaware his train had hit persons. He's been mercifully spared the dreadful 'first person view'. I also have nothing but respect for the emergency services and those involved in recovery of the victims.

What I can't do though is speak ill of the dead, outrightly condemning them, in this case.

[CJB666]

I am well puzzled by the ubiquitous use of the word 'artist' in the media and here. As though this word gives some justification for their criminal activities.

Remember the graffiti vandalism of heritage railway carriage stock up North just after a major restoration project?

Then there was the brand new Thameslink train at Worthing sidings - multi-million pound - just delivered - and then covered in graffiti.

I remember some years back that the iconic Hanwell Station on the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) mainline was well tagged. Then the idiot 'artist' tried to extend the area of his 'canvas' to the track-side structures - and got killed by a Heathrow Express. Hanwell has never been tagged since.

Oh - and some of WCR's maroon working carriage stock has been tagged in the last few days at Southall.

If there's any graffiti "tributes" I hope that the perpetrators get caught and fined and jailed.

Artists? No - criminal idiots.


 

[TaplowGreen]

I for one wont be mourning the loss of three prolific criminals.

You're a criminal if you're convicted. Do we know that any of these three had a criminal record? Let alone being prolific criminals. I'd prefer to say, based only social media postings about them, that they may have been persistent law breakers.

They were breaking the law (very distinct from being a criminal - innocent until proved guilty) and have paid a heavy price. I have sympathy for them as their 'punishment' has been way beyond that usually given for the laws they were breaking.

Of course I have sympathy for their families and friends too. And for the driver of the train who is now having to come to terms with the news. That will weigh heavily, although it would appear that this driver was unaware his train had hit persons. He's been mercifully spared the dreadful 'first person view'. I also have nothing but respect for the emergency services and those involved in recovery of the victims.

What I can't do though is speak ill of the dead, outrightly condemning them, in this case.

Hear Hear - let he who is without sin etc.


Thoughts are with the families and the driver - at times like these compassion is a far, far higher quality than any misplaced self righteous condemnation, which, quite frankly, is best kept to oneself.

[Electric train]

I do have sympathy for the families, however these 3 men were vandals and what they were doing was a criminal act that costs the railway (aka the tax payer) a lot of time and money to clean the mess so called art they leave, they ultimately paid the price with their lives, possibly placed railway staff a police officers under immense emotional stress and inconvenienced many law abiding people.


  

[Bmblbzzz]

Some graffiti is now recognised by "the art world" as art, Banksy being the canonical example (I don't actually like his stuff). There are regular tours of Bristol showing off the graffiti art (murals by another name?). These appeal to both domestic and foreign tourists, adults and children (regular tours by French – or at least French-speaking – school parties are a common sight, for some reason).

That's perhaps not particularly relevant to tagging trains, but it's not a crime deserving of a death penalty.

[grahame]

There is naturally a storm of conflicting emotions on this.  Personally, I think bignosemac has (as his handle would suggest) hit it on the nose -

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=19956.msg240108#msg240108

You're a criminal if you're convicted. Do we know that any of these three had a criminal record? Let alone being prolific criminals. I'd prefer to say, based only social media postings about them, that they may have been persistent law breakers.

They were breaking the law (very distinct from being a criminal - innocent until proved guilty) and have paid a heavy price. I have sympathy for them as their 'punishment' has been way beyond that usually given for the laws they were breaking.

Of course I have sympathy for their families and friends too. And for the driver of the train who is now having to come to terms with the news. That will weigh heavily, although it would appear that this driver was unaware his train had hit persons. He's been mercifully spared the dreadful 'first person view'. I also have nothing but respect for the emergency services and those involved in recovery of the victims.

What I can't do though is speak ill of the dead, outrightly condemning them, in this case.

May they rest in peace. May, at least, others learn from the lesson that this is dangerous as well as breaking laws. And may everyone effected grieve but then find ways to move forward.

[TaplowGreen]

Human faces of a tragedy

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/tributes-to-graffiti-artists-killed-by-train/ar-AAySfqE?ocid=spartanntp


edit by Grahame  The thread degenerate into a morbid curiosity about evens, with members starting to criticised one another and (arguably) get person.   Several reports made of this being inappropriate , and the thread was quarantines.    I have decided to split the topic taking the posts made after it started going in that direction, with only they main section remaining public.

[Bob_Blakey]

...but it's not a crime deserving of a death penalty.

Somewhat inappropriate, I feel, given that the deaths were entirely self-inflicted.

[broadgage]

We must distinguish between an actual death penalty, imposed by a court of law, and carried out by a state executioner, and the accidental deaths of persons breaking the law.

I would not support the death penalty for criminal damage to trains, and I suspect that hardly anyone would support execution for such a crime.
If however persons are accidently killed whilst committing such a crime then I feel that they are suffering the entirely foreseeable consequences of their own actions.

Likewise I would not support capital punishment of burglars, but if a burglar is killed in a fight or struggle, then IMHO^▸ ('in my humble opinion') that is a risk that they take.

I would not support executing shoplifters. But I recall a case in which a thief concealed glass bottles of drink under their clothing, were chased by a security guard, tripped up and fell. The bottles smashed and the thief bled to death from the cuts received.
That is not capital punishment, but an accident resulting from breaking the law.

[TaplowGreen]

……...I feel like I've stumbled into the Daily Mail editorial conference 

[bobm]

They have one?   

[chuffed]

aka Prepared to Meet Thy Dacre.....

[Clan Line]

I for one wont be mourning the loss of three prolific criminals.

You're a criminal if you're convicted. Do we know that any of these three had a criminal record? Let alone being prolific criminals. I'd prefer to say, based only social media postings about them, that they may have been persistent law breakers.

They were breaking the law (very distinct from being a criminal - innocent until proved guilty) and have paid a heavy price.

Sorry, but Mac is wrong there...........a criminal is anyone who has committed a criminal act. If you are convicted  - you are a "convicted criminal".  Following Mac's logic a serial killer only becomes a criminal when caught and convicted - not so, he becomes a criminal as soon as he kills his first victim.
I make no comment on this particular case.

[JayMac]

If you've commited a criminal act you are, if arrested, a suspect until such time as you plead or are found guilty  in a court.

I say again, innocent until proven guilty. Even the serial killer. An act commited and a subsequent arrest are not findings of fact.