The Consultation is On!

[whole diary]

[eightf48544]

Onr of the difficulties with the fare structure however devised is tha are too many )pun) Many to Many  relationships to cope with even with a computer.

Consider just Many Stations, Many trains, Many routes. Add in peak, off peak, single return  and the number of possible fares  sky rockets.

Demand led pricing like the airlines, who mainly fly A to B  a couple of times a day,  falls down because a train may stop 10 times and the service be once an hour at each those 10 stations. too many combinations.

Maybe tapering mileage charge less the longer the journey. That would solve the split ticket problem/solution.

[grahame]

Maybe tapering mileage charge less the longer the journey. That would solve the split ticket problem/solution.

Passenger's journeys require the use of two stations with all of their facilities which brings a cost, as does the stopping a starting of the train at their begin and end point.  Running a train has fuel, wear and tear, staff costs etc based on distance and time taken - which increase directly (or roughly) in proportion to distance.   So there is an argument to suggest a station use charge plus a charge that's based on mileage or time taken as being closer to the cost of providing the service than most / many other approaches.

Suggestions of solutions to "solve the split ticket problem" worry me.  It feels to me that we are treating the symptoms not the underlying disease, and that if we were to treat the disease we would mitigate or cure the symptoms.  And are the symptoms in themselves really a problem?   Do we really want to throw out the baby with the bathwater?

Being able to join multiple tickets is a really positive encouragement.   I can travel out from Melksham to Bath Spa, find myself doing various things in Bath and traveling back from Oldfield Park.  Under split ticket arrangements, I can top up my ticket with a single from Oldfield Park to Bath, remain on the train to Trowbridge, and change there for Melksham.  What would I do without the split?   
* I could buy a single to Bath Spa, get off, go out through the barriers, around the station and back in; pretty sure my train would have left by then, and I wouldn't get back to Melksham until an hour or more later
* I could buy a new single ticket all the way from Oldfield Park to Melksham
* I could buy an Oldfield Park to Trowbridge ticket, where I would leave an re-enter the station rather than just swapping platforms, joining the Melksham train "short" on the return half of my Melksham to Bath ticket (if THAT were still allowed)
* I could make my way back (by bus or on foot) to Bath Spa to rejoin the railway there, even though a train going in the direction I wanted called at a station that I was right beside, and on which I had already paid for a ticket for 90% of the way.
* I could decide just to do the whole day's trip by some other means such as car.

[Clan Line]

Suggestions of solutions to "solve the split ticket problem" worry me.  It feels to me that we are treating the symptoms not the underlying disease, and that if we were to treat the disease we would mitigate or cure the symptoms.  And are the symptoms in themselves really a problem?   Do we really want to throw out the baby with the bathwater?

Totally agree with you there !  The main problem is that no one knows what the disease actually is. The usual assumed complaint is "fares-too-high-itis" followed by examples of how cheap the fares are in any other country on the planet apart from the UK^▸ (United Kingdom). Any fares "rationalisation" would therefore require huge cuts in ticket prices across the board - just how likely is that that ??  2 or 3p on income tax would probably make every rail traveller happy  ....until they get next year's tax coding notice from HMRC.

"Solving the split ticket problem"...what problem ? If I get a day ret from WMN^» (Warminster - next trains) to SOU it costs 18.0p/mile. (on a railcard). If I split at SAL, it works out at 12p/mile. Would the fare to SOU come down to 12p/mile - or the split fares go up to 18p/mile ...........only one answer there, I fear - problem solved !

I would put Advance fares in the same bucket as splitting - they can be amazingly "cheap" (My best one: 8p/mile, 1st Class from Euston to Glasgow). Does the commuter on the 0730 from Swindon to Paddington really expect his ticket price to drop to that level ? or does he want the Advance ticket his granny (and me !) buys, to travel off peak, to double/triple in price ? A lot of empty daytime trains coming up.

I fear that all that is going to happen is that many of the bargains available on the railways - and there are plenty - will vanish. Leave well alone until the disease is actually identified - if it ever is !

[JayMac]

Grahame. You could just buy a Melksham to Oldfield Park Day Return, breaking your outward journey at Bath.

That's certainly cheaper than any combination of split tickets. Railway ticketing doesn't really cater for those whose plans change on the hoof. Nor should it without introducing more complexity.

None of the topics and polls started on this forum, nor the consultation (which I think offers nothing positive) have considered what I'd like to see. A reduction in fares across the board. Achieved through greater subsidy from central government. Oh, and by stripping out wasteful costs from a rail industry that is fractured and has too many layers. Yes. Nationalisation.

[grahame]

Grahame. You could just buy a Melksham to Oldfield Park Day Return, breaking your outward journey at Bath.

Agreed - if I knew in the first place that I was coming back from Oldfield Park.    You know what it's like - you go into Bath to buy a widget and find that Maplins has gone and Currys don't have it ... neither do Bath Electtical services. However, Currys have checked with their Weston Lock branch so you stroll out there and - yes - purchase what you need.  Oops - nearest Station Oldfield Park ... don't really fancy walking back in carryon a widget. Do you realise just how heavy and bulky they are.

Could I also excess the return half of my Bath Spa ticket into a return from Oldfield Park?

That's certainly cheaper than any combination of split tickets. Railway ticketing doesn't really cater for those whose plans change on the hoof. Nor should it without introducing more complexity.

Fair enough - and so a good example of a use of split tickets as the system intended in the first place!

None of the topics and polls started on this forum, nor the consultation (which I think offers nothing positive) have considered what I'd like to see. A reduction in fares across the board. Achieved through greater subsidy from central government. Oh, and by stripping out wasteful costs from a rail industry that is fractured and has too many layers. Yes. Nationalisation.

The consultation very specifically sets the bounds of retaining the same income, and I would agree that's not taking a wide look at all.    In theory, it does allow for lower fares though the generation of more journeys, but it would be a very brave person to make that case - more likely, if the system changed those who's fares rose significantly would quickly move away from the train, but the build up of new business on lowered price tickets would take longer, resulting at least in a temporary downturn in passenger numbers.

[grahame]

Many thanks for your inputs ... all three polls closed earlier today







As fallout from the timetabling look over work for May 2019 that I've been involve with, I have been invited to an "Easier Fares Consultation roundtable " ... and  thanks to the airing of views and voting on here, I feel better informed to understand what I hear said against the views of our typical untypical customer sample. I will us your inputs to guide, and feedback any gems I learn that might help with your answers.

[bobm]

One thing a lot of the new technologies rely on is that the person buying the ticket is the person who travels.  There should still be a mechanism for those (like me) who are unofficial travel consultants for their family and friends and buy tickets on their behalf but don't travel with them.

[JayMac]

I am occasionally bobm's unofficial travel consultant consultant. 

[bobm]

He does get his 10% though.

[JayMac]

Which is usually converted into beer tokens!

[TonyK]

Why change? What is wrong with the air of mystery and the fact that those of us "in the know" can play the system to our advantage? Almost the only fun in my monthly trips to Blackpool to visit my late mother in the nursing home was in seeing how cheaply I could manage the trip - usually under £25 each way. My cousin recently sent her 17-year-old son to stay with his uncle in the north of Scotland, buying a Cross Country ticket from Bicester the night before and wondering a) why it cost so much and b) why she couldn't reserve a seat for him. It wasn't a trip planned at the last minute, just badly planned in terms of transport. People like her effectively subsidise those of us who know the value of booking at least a few days in advance.

[martyjon]

Condemn me if you wish but I did not take part in the consultation because my days of long distance rail travel looks to be a relic of the past, Glasgow is where I fledge my wings to and when I can get one way fares on Easyjet from / to Bristol for as little as £22.66 to and £24.68 from Scotlands second city then regards competing modes of transport there is "no contest".

[grahame]

Condemn me if you wish but I did not take part in the consultation because my days of long distance rail travel looks to be a relic of the past, Glasgow is where I fledge my wings to and when I can get one way fares from / to Bristol for as little as £22.66 to and £24.68 from Scotlands second city then regards competing modes of transport there is "no contest".

It is my understanding that the consultation refers to all rail fares - long and short distance.  Indeed, much of the "split ticket" business comes from local fares which are cheaper per mile than long distance fares.   The average train journey (a few years back) was 20 miles [[not sure how that was calculated]], compared to 6 miles by bus.

Railways have largely priced themselves out of the South West to Scotland market.  But then you look at the crowding on so many CrossCountry trains in and out of Birmingham, and you wonder if high prices for the long journeys are actually a sensible business decision.

[martyjon]

The average train journey (a few years back) was 20 miles [[not sure how that was calculated]], compared to 6 miles by bus.

Where did this data come from, I live in an area which is widely regarded as a dormitory town for Bristol and in the morning and evening peaks we have had "express" bus services to Bristol and from 03 September these are being extended to run all day until early evening with longer duration journeys running until a last bus from Bristol at 23.35 daily. Distance about 12 miles. I could also make a similar repeat statement regarding the town of Thornbury. We also have a, reopened in 1989, rail station from which we have been promised a half hourly rail service in the future, hourly now, how far in the future is in the "lap of the gods" knowing how long it takes the rail organisations to do what is normally viewed as a simple task.

[TaplowGreen]

Why change? What is wrong with the air of mystery and the fact that those of us "in the know" can play the system to our advantage? Almost the only fun in my monthly trips to Blackpool to visit my late mother in the nursing home was in seeing how cheaply I could manage the trip - usually under £25 each way. My cousin recently sent her 17-year-old son to stay with his uncle in the north of Scotland, buying a Cross Country ticket from Bicester the night before and wondering a) why it cost so much and b) why she couldn't reserve a seat for him. It wasn't a trip planned at the last minute, just badly planned in terms of transport. People like her effectively subsidise those of us who know the value of booking at least a few days in advance.

Can't agree with that, seems a bit "I'm all right Jack" - the railways are massively subsidised by the taxpayer and as we all (mostly) pay tax, it should be a level playing field, it shouldn't favour those "in the know", fares should be transparent and easy for all to understand, be they enthusiasts or occasional travellers.