Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.

[whole diary]

[stuving]

Prompted by the mention of them in the recent/current Weymouth thread, any more news on when they will be ready for service (recalling Spring 2019 as the original target date....)?

And how many have been delivered?

And any information as to what the principal problems causing all this delay might be?

The 769s made earlier and now operating (when fit) on Northern and TfW have had very poor reliability and still do. That's despite delays that were in part so as to fix the problems (which have not been identified).

The GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) ones started off with a habit of giving up and coming back early to Reading, but more recently have done a lot better. So far their trips to Gatwick and back have been for mileage accumulation (aka fault-free running), but as of last week they began doing driver training (subject to having enough staff, presumably).

There are not many of the fleet at Reading yet, but that doesn't tell you haw many a ready. Until there are enough trained drivers they can't be put into service, so the Turbos can't go away, and there is not much room for stock in excess of the working fleet. That's not to say you need the whole fleet available before starting to use them, so December still looks possible for a limited introduction. You'll remember that GWR talked about "infiltrating" them, which I think means no razzamataz and marketing nonsense - confidence in this all going to plan remains low.

[eightonedee]

Thanks Stuving - I look forward to my last few months of commuting before retirement with trepidation!

[IndustryInsider]

There are also issues over the suitability of the cab.

[eightonedee]

There are also issues over the suitability of the cab.

That's sounds serious - can you tell us more?

[IndustryInsider]

Just whether it's appropriate for a 'new' train.  It's a design of cab that would never be allowed for a new build now, and though this is a conversion job, it's a major conversion job so opinions differ as to whether it should be accepted into traffic with various sub-optimal features in the cab, such as a poorly designed seat, general space and layout and cab cooling. 

The same argument rumbled on at Northern for quite some time!

If I was to take a punt, it will be next year before any enter service, and when they do reliability will plummet.  But a saviour will come within a short(ish) period of time when excess diesel stock from elsewhere will be found as a result of a post pandemic surplus of trains due to service cuts elsewhere on the railway network.

[Timmer]

Maybe it’s time for the railway to admit on this occasion you can’t teach an old dog new tricks and drop this project.

In the time it’s taken you could easily have electrified the missing links on the North Downs line and ran the 319s as they were intended…on electricity!

[Electric train]

In the time it’s taken you could easily have electrified the missing links on the North Downs line and ran the 319s as they were intended…on electricity!

That may not have solved II point about cab suitability, if they were being introduced to replace existing stock and the cab standards of the 319's are low than the 165/6 the same questions would be raised by the Drivers Staff Reps with the company managers

[grahame]

If I was to take a punt, it will be next year before any enter service, and when they do reliability will plummet.  But a saviour will come within a short(ish) period of time when excess diesel stock from elsewhere will be found as a result of a post pandemic surplus of trains due to service cuts elsewhere on the railway network.

OK ... but will there really be a surplus?

Quoting the Secretary of State

I do not dispute that the Bristol trains are busy at certain times, and while I acknowledge the attractiveness of the through service to Waterloo to passengers like Mr Annand, there are increasing capacity issues elsewhere on the West of England line, especially beyond Salisbury, as leisure demand grows.

Consequently, the industry is looking to ensure that we maximise the use of the SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) diesel fleet on the core Exeter route,to ensure that customers can have a comfortable journey.

[IndustryInsider]

I think there will be, yes.  300 cancellations a day for Scotrail planned IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly)?  There will be much more of a surplus of EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) I think, but I expect there to be a diesel surplus too.

[broadgage]

I think there will be, yes.  300 cancellations a day for Scotrail planned IIRC^▸ (if I recall/remember/read correctly)?  There will be much more of a surplus of EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) I think, but I expect there to be a diesel surplus too.

You may be right, but for at least ten years  we have been told that there will be soon be a surplus of stock on FGW^▸ (First Great Western)/GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) with improved capacity, longer trains, and much reduced overcrowding.
But the actual result has been shorter trains and worse overcrowding. I suppose that eventually it might get better, but the last ten years or more do not fill me with confidence.

The failed IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) project has significantly cut capacity and train length of main line services.
And the even more failed 769 project has cut branch line capacity even more.

I don't expect improvement any time soon.

[IndustryInsider]

I very much doubt the spare stock would come from a surplus that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) would have, more likely Scotrail (hence mentioning them in my post) or other operators of large diesel fleets.

[grahame]

I very much doubt the spare stock would come from a surplus that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) would have, more likely Scotrail (hence mentioning them in my post) or other operators of large diesel fleets.

I also wonder what is happening to new deliveries such as the 77 class 197 units on order for Transport for Wales; from Wikipedia:

The Class 197 trains will also have fewer toilets than the Class 158 and Class 175 trains they are intended to replace.

ignoring the toilets, could new homes for those 158s be found at Salisbury, Bristol and Exeter? I would almost welcome something that's tried and tested and can reliably run within days of arriving, of a know type and generally well liked and suitable.   There might even be enough to run a service from Waterloo to Bristol and Cardiff ...

[eightonedee]

My trepidation grows....

Thanks all for your input. It's not an encouraging picture, but I think it leaves us with the following scenario(s)-

1 - class 769s may not come into use until first/second quarter of 2022. Purely selfishly, if reliability remains as poor as seems to be the case at present, if this delayed until after April I will quietly be relieved (never thought I would be grateful to continue to use the current scruffy Turbo fleet with their poor standard class seats!). Is there still the possibility that they might be rejected as sub-standard? I have noticed that I have only seen one with GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) signwriting, the others have only been painted not sign-written, which after all this time does not look like a vote of confidence or confirmation of acceptance.


2- GW^▸ (Great Western) management (or DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) pulling the strings behind the scenes) have a dilemma. Do they keep Turbos east in case the 769s fail (or are rejected because of continuing unresolved issues?) at the expense of those further west or send them west and transfer the problems to the Thames Valley/North Downs? If there really will be trains to cascade from Wales or Scotland, presumably these would have to be types already in use on GW, so 150s and 158s, which may be seen as a reason to keep the Turbos east where crew are familiar with the type, and send the 150s and 158s west (again, where crew are familiar with them). But what if there is delay in delivering the new Welsh trains, or if Nichola Sturgeon under pressure from her new Green allies reinstates many of the cancelled trains (does the Scottish government have any say?)?

3 - And are the cab problems confined to the 769s? While they have been using them in the past and they are still on the fleet, are there problems putting 150s and 158s back on services now run using Turbos? I know 158s give a better passenger experience, but what about drivers?

Timmer's comments are not so daft. I believe that the Electrostars have the ability to run on third rail and if we had a properly run railway the Reading "pool" of these would be running the North Downs as well, instead of being raided for Heathrow work, with a lot of recently installed new interior fittings being removed and presumably wasted even though nearly new.

[broadgage]

I very much doubt the spare stock would come from a surplus that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) would have, more likely Scotrail (hence mentioning them in my post) or other operators of large diesel fleets.

I do not share you optimism, firstly that Scotrail will release the units, secondly that they will work reliably and prove suitable.
Scotrail would naturally send the worst examples from the fleet.

[Lee]

How many years of active National Rail service do we think that the 15x and 16x units have left in them, and how many more years do we think it will be considered acceptable to continue to run diesel trains in general on the National Rail network, given how markedly attitudes have changed even over the past few years towards all things diesel from a Climate Emergency perspective?