Trimode cl 769 to operate Reading to Oxford and Gatwick.

[whole diary]

[grahame]

They should be fine on AC - though with limited opportunities to use it.  There is a massive scarcity of pure diesel trains (other than new orders, which isn’t really an option for any franchises under a short-term direct award), so it’s as much about capacity as anything else.

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC^▸ (Direct Current), even if not immediately.

To be clear .... that's runnable pure diesel trains, isn't it?  We're seeing pictures of Pacers being cut up, and the first High Speed Train (HST^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units))) set has gone for scrap while others are stored at Ely and Long Marston.   Those are far from what's now regarded as ideal modern trains but where it "has had to" the government has used its dispensations to allow the old stuff to continue in service for a while.


Edit: VickiS - Clarifying acronyms

[mjones]

If they can only run on diesel,  can they match 165/6 performance on the  North Downs line? Indeed, just on the fairly flat Didcot to Reading run they could struggle to fit in around electric services.  To see journey times worsen after such an expensive electrification programme is going be embarrassing.

[IndustryInsider]

If they can only run on diesel,  can they match 165/6 performance on the  North Downs line? Indeed, just on the fairly flat Didcot to Reading run they could struggle to fit in around electric services.  To see journey times worsen after such an expensive electrification programme is going be embarrassing.

On the North Downs, nearly but not quite I think.  They currently aren’t planned to be used between Didcot and Reading, though if they were that could be under AC.

[Electric train]

They should be fine on AC - though with limited opportunities to use it.  There is a massive scarcity of pure diesel trains (other than new orders, which isn’t really an option for any franchises under a short-term direct award), so it’s as much about capacity as anything else.

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC^▸ (Direct Current), even if not immediately.

Depends on the traction pack and the levels of signal immunisation, just needs to acceptance to be carried out, but the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) has to pay to have this done and the NoBo

[stuving]

They should be fine on AC - though with limited opportunities to use it.  There is a massive scarcity of pure diesel trains (other than new orders, which isn’t really an option for any franchises under a short-term direct award), so it’s as much about capacity as anything else.

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC^▸ (Direct Current), even if not immediately.

Depends on the traction pack and the levels of signal immunisation, just needs to acceptance to be carried out, but the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) has to pay to have this done and the NoBo

I presume that's a reference to proving on additional routes, after the "new" train has been approved (with all that paperwork) and tested somewhere at Porterbrook's cost. I found this in a Rail Engineer article (which isn't responding now) - from a visit/interview mainly with Helen Simpson (engineering innovation and development manager of Porterbrook):

Approvals

Helen talked about the compliance and approval process. The modification is not considered an upgrade or renewal and does not require authorisation under the common safety method for risk evaluation and assessment, although this process has been voluntarily applied as a robust means of managing safety. SNC-Lavalin is providing integrated Notified Body, Designated Body and Assessment Body services.

Full details of this process would justify its own article, and Helen described some of the challenges applying the approval process mandated by the Technical Standards for Interoperability (TSI) regulations on a 30-year-old train. For example, TSI noise requirements do not apply, but pass-by noise will be compared to other DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) operating the same services on the route; in the case of the Northern trains, this means comparing with the Class 15X units. Porterbrook needs to show it is no worse, but is actually aiming for it to be a demonstrable improvement. This, and other type approval testing, was expected to be carried out at the nearby Great Central Railway.

Of course they may have discovered Hofstadter's law applies to Network Rail's (NR^» (Network Rail - home page)'s) approvals requirements.

The plan was to not change the traction at all, just feed it from an on-board generator-alternator-converter. Rather oddly, the shoe gear would be put somewhere new (and perhaps be new itself?). But something must have delayed the programme - by what, a year and a bit? - and that might include some rethinking of that plan, though I've not seen any mention of it.

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying abbreviation

[SandTEngineer]

According to info posted elsewhere there are going to be 19 class 769s and a naming list has been drawn up based on mythical characters.

[eightf48544]

According to info posted elsewhere there are going to be 19 class 769s and a naming list has been drawn up based on mythical characters.

Very appropriate.

[grahame]

According to info posted elsewhere there are going to be 19 class 769s and a naming list has been drawn up based on mythical characters.

Very appropriate.

Quite a few have been used before ... https://www.sparknotes.com/lit/mythology/characters/ may give some ideas.

I was wondering how serious the original suggestion was.

[Electric train]

They should be fine on AC - though with limited opportunities to use it.  There is a massive scarcity of pure diesel trains (other than new orders, which isn’t really an option for any franchises under a short-term direct award), so it’s as much about capacity as anything else.

Though it will be a great shame if they can’t use DC^▸ (Direct Current), even if not immediately.

Depends on the traction pack and the levels of signal immunisation, just needs to acceptance to be carried out, but the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) has to pay to have this done and the NoBo

I presume that's a reference to proving on additional routes, after the "new" train has been approved (with all that paperwork) and tested somewhere at Porterbrook's cost. I found this in a Rail Engineer article (which isn't responding now) - from a visit/interview mainly with Helen Simpson (engineering innovation and development manager of Porterbrook):

Approvals

Helen talked about the compliance and approval process. The modification is not considered an upgrade or renewal and does not require authorisation under the common safety method for risk evaluation and assessment, although this process has been voluntarily applied as a robust means of managing safety. SNC-Lavalin is providing integrated Notified Body, Designated Body and Assessment Body services.

Full details of this process would justify its own article, and Helen described some of the challenges applying the approval process mandated by the Technical Standards for Interoperability (TSI) regulations on a 30-year-old train. For example, TSI noise requirements do not apply, but pass-by noise will be compared to other DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) operating the same services on the route; in the case of the Northern trains, this means comparing with the Class 15X units. Porterbrook needs to show it is no worse, but is actually aiming for it to be a demonstrable improvement. This, and other type approval testing, was expected to be carried out at the nearby Great Central Railway.

Of course they may have discovered Hofstadter's law applies to NR^» (Network Rail - home page)'s approvals requirements.

The plan was to not change the traction at all, just feed it from an on-board generator-alternator-converter. Rather oddly, the shoe gear would be put somewhere new (and perhaps be new itself?). But something must have delayed the programme - by what, a year and a bit? - and that might include some rethinking of that plan, though I've not seen any mention of it.

The 319's did not necessary have universal route clearance, the were never cleared for instance to operate through Canal Tunnels (the new Thameslink between the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) and St Pancras) Rolling stock does not always have route clearance under "grandfather rights" on new (to it) routes

[eightonedee]

Quote from: eightonedee on Today at 04:40:08 pm
Quote
A quick look at the North Downs Line timetable suggests to me that there are 10 daily diagrams or so on that line; not sure how many are pairs of units, though.

The short answer "none" I think. The 769s would (when they eventually arrive!) be useful for Reading-Oxford services as a  replacement for the Turbos used there. I think that there are currently some two unit services on this service - one I used to catch, albeit with one locked out of use to avoid people falling out at Appleford.

No plans to use 769s west of Reading.  Virtually all will be confined to North Downs duties, which will release the 16 Turbos for cascade west.

II's reply sums up the sorry saga that has unfolded as set out in this thread. OK, they will probably not arrive as last promised this month due to Covid 19. But when they do, we will have tri-mode trains that will not be able to run on electric for most of the electrified part of the North Downs route, and from what our learned friend Stuving has told us may have traction problems on a route that is relatively steeply graded in parts in adverse rail head conditions. However, the OHL^▸ (Over-Head Line) equipment will remain largely (entirely?) unused, while diesels still ply the part electrified route between Reading and Oxford.

Is that really a satisfactory outcome?   

[eightonedee]

Meanwhile from the Sheffield Star

Quote
Fury over plans to axe 450 workers at Doncaster rail factory
Plans to axe up to 450 jobs at a Doncaster rail maintenance factory have been blasted by a union which claimed they had been ‘smuggled out under the cloak of the Covid-19 crisis’.

and

Odd that ... Wabtec have a queue of work and are laying off lots of staff ...

Appropriate prompts - what's the latest on the delivery of the 769s?

[IndustryInsider]

GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)’s first is expected to arrive next month AIUI^▸ ('as I understand it').

[grahame]

Appropriate prompts - what's the latest on the delivery of the 769s?

GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)’s first is expected to arrive next month AIUI^▸ ('as I understand it').

I wondered if I had missed "first revenue earning service" anywhere, but I don't think so:

Northern - Driver training started (or was planned to start) February 2020
Transport for Wales - entering service "some time in 2020".  Understand testing from mid March
Great Western - noting arrival date above (thank you II) - Wikipedia says "eventually"
Rail Operations Group - in service in 2020.

[IndustryInsider]

I suspect it’ll be a fair while yet before any enter service on GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway).

[grahame]

GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)’s first is expected to arrive next month AIUI^▸ ('as I understand it').

Tomorrow - 30th July.
10:27 from Loughborough, onto GWR territory at Banbury at 14:14, Reading Traincare Depot 15:24.
(( https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/K05794/2020-07-30/detailed ))

The training ... when will it carry passengers?