Rail firms accused of misusing courts for ticket errors / fare evasion (merged posts)

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

I believe the 2nd person's card IS still available.
The Gold Card area was extended to that map area some year's ago now.

No, never available uk-wide.
I *think* the second person's T&Cs were the same as the primary card holder who paid £1 for the additional card.

[Trowres]

4.2. Discounts are not available on tickets for travel on morning peak services for journeys that start and end within the London & South East area (defined by the Network Railcard area – network-railcard.co.uk/map) on Monday to Friday (except on public holidays). The time when off-peak services start can vary by station. Use nationalrail.co.uk to plan your journey to identify when off-peak services start or ask rail staff for details.

This is another case where journey planners (nationalrail and GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) seem to agree on this) don't exactly implement the meaning of the text.

A period of testing reveals that the journey planners seem to be consistent in allowing railcard use between two stations in the "L&SE" area IF the route wanders out of the said area and back in again.

So:

• Exeter SD to Worcester SH is fine
• Exeter SD to Basingstoke via Salisbury isn't
• Exeter SD to Basingstoke via Pewsey is fine*

* Via Salisbury undiscounted is often cheaper that the via Pewsey railcard fare,  but that's a different matter!

The end of peak time (for the railcard discount) seems to be based on availability of an off-peak ticket. I haven't yet researched:

• Whether off peak depends just on "regular" off-peak fares such as CDR^▸ (Off Peak Day Return [ticket type] (formerly 'Cheap Day')) SSR or includes more esoteric offerings
• Whether or not railcard validity in the return direction is based on the (often different) set of fare restrictions applying to the return part of a journey *

* anyone who tries to use the new version of the nationalrail journey planner as a means of checking whether a railcard is valid or not is likely to become very frustrated. Unless you know the fare, it's not obvious until the last stage of the process where it comes up with something like railcard discount not applied.

[Trowres]

4.2. Discounts are not available on tickets for travel on morning peak services for journeys that start and end within the London & South East area (defined by the Network Railcard area – network-railcard.co.uk/map) on Monday to Friday (except on public holidays).

Oh dear....another update likely....

404 Page Not Found
Unfortunately, this page could not be found:
https://www.network-railcard.co.uk/using-your-railcard/railcard-area/

Counting the T&C page and the FAQs^▸ (Frequently Asked Questions), there are two different links to the cursed map; neither of which is correct.

[eightonedee]

The photo of the cardholder must meet our guidelines and be recognisable as the cardholder.

But - my senior railcard does not have my photo on it (unlike my old Network Card that accompanied my annual season)- is that also the case with other forum members?

[1st fan]

Mondays to Fridays valid from 09:00 plus the following services, for boarding at any station en route:

08:03 Axminster - Salisbury (London Waterloo service)08:39 Patchway - Taunton08:53 Weymouth - Gloucester08:36 Taunton - Bristol Parkway08:50 Great Malvern - Westbury08:27 Swindon - Taunton08:40 Swindon - Cheltenham Spa

Err ... there isn't an 08:27  from Swindon to Taunton and beyond, nor at 08:40 to Cheltenham Spa these days, I don't think?   Nor an 08:53 Weymouth to Gloucester or an 08:50 Great Malvern to Westbury ...

Back when I had an electronic copy of the fares manual I could see irregularities in ticket validities. In the relevant section it was possible to see one such thing on the North Cotswold line. There was a named (by time) train that had an easement where you could use your Gold Card on it before 10am. I used this when there was a train timed to run at that time, but then there was a timetable change. The train in question went and there was one a few minutes different from the previous one.

I called National Rail Enquiries to check if the easement still applied and spoke to a nice chap in India. I enquired as to whether he had an up to date copy of the fares manual before I asked my question. Yes he said he did so I enquired about the easement. He seemed a little confused, he could tell me that there was a train running from Moreton in Marsh to London Paddington and that I could use my gold card after 10am. He couldn’t tell me about the easement though, to my dismay, however he put his supervisor on who he thought might be able to help.

So I asked the supervisor if he could please turn to page xx of section X of the fares manual and he stopped me. He told me that they don’t have a copy of the fares manual in the NRE^‡(resolve) office in India. I said his colleague had told me that they did and got told that his colleage was confused. He advised calling the Train Operating Company direct and asking them. Called customer service and spoke to a very helpful chap who importantly did have access to the fares manual.

He looked at the relevant section (impressed with my knowledge) and confirmed that the manual now listed a train that didn’t exist for the easement. He said that someone needed to update the manual, he could see that historically the last train before 10am qualified for the easement. Therefore I was okay to use my Gold Card on that train and supplied me with his name in case anybody argued about it.

The first time I did use it I explained everything I just typed and the Train Manager said he didn’t have a copy of it either. As GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) didn’t see fit to supply one to the Train Managers he said he couldn’t check, it was  therefore fine and no he didn’t need the name of the nice man I spoke to.

I believe the 2nd person's card IS still available.
The Gold Card area was extended to that map area some year's ago now.

No, never available uk-wide.
I *think* the second person's T&Cs were the same as the primary card holder who paid £1 for the additional card.

From memory the area was extended when the Gold Card First Class upgrade was removed.

[Chris from Nailsea]

The photo of the cardholder must meet our guidelines and be recognisable as the cardholder.

But - my senior railcard does not have my photo on it (unlike my old Network Card that accompanied my annual season)- is that also the case with other forum members?

Yes.

My Senior Railcard (for which I applied online in late May and received a few days later) does not have any facility for a photo.  That's why I always carry it in my wallet next to my driving licence - which does have a photo which looks remarkably like me, just in case I'm ever challenged.

Interestingly, my Senior Railcard, on the reverse, states that it is 'NOT VALID UNLESS SIGNED'. I have signed it, but why: what would any train manager or ticket barrier staff check that 'Authorised signature' against?

The system's a mess.

[Mark A]

I believe the 2nd person's card IS still available.
The Gold Card area was extended to that map area some year's ago now.

No, never available uk-wide.
I *think* the second person's T&Cs were the same as the primary card holder who paid £1 for the additional card.

Thanks for this - Wikipedia has more on this with some dates - the NSE^▸ (Network South East) Gold Card for annual season ticket holders, introduced in September '88 offered discounts within the Network South East area.

I'm remembering a different product, the 'Annual Season Ticket Holder's Railcard', which was introduced in 1985, offering 50% discounts on day returns and 34% on period returns, the discounts were available UK^▸ (United Kingdom)-wide (as was the card, so if someone was a season ticket holder into Inverness, they were eligible for this railcard. When it was withdrawn, over a year after the NSE gold card was introduced, it must have been missed).

Both of these offered a partner's railcard, but the annual season ticket holder's railcard + partners card in particular went a considerable way towards easing the pain of London commuting's occasional wobbles.

One of the more wild trips enabled by these cards was London to Shrewsbury to collect a coracle, an item that the railway might now  hesitate to accept as accompanied luggage.

Mark

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concessionary_fares_on_the_British_railway_network#Other_discount_cards

[grahame]

One of the more wild trips enabled by these cards was London to Shrewsbury to collect a coracle, an item that the railway might now  hesitate to accept as accompanied luggage.

Times have changed - the conveyance of horses by train WAS routine but not now:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-13437279

Saw a harp at Lawrence Hill and a Cello at Didcot recently.  Not seen a coracle of late and cannot advise.

[Chris from Nailsea]

I did a journey with a surfboard to Melksham without untoward incident - but I digress. 

[Mark A]

From the Guardian, something is going to be done.

Mark

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2024/oct/14/northern-rail-passengers-may-be-compensated-fare-evasion-rules

[ChrisB]

As i Thought....

Under Northern rules, passengers with a railcard travelling on the wrong train must be offered the chance to pay back the deficit on the spot, the Telegraph reported.

[grahame]

From the Guardian, something is going to be done.

A Department for Transport spokesperson said: “We expect Northern and all operators to ensure their policy on ticketing is clear and fair for passengers at all times. Northern are reviewing the details of these cases and will report back to the department.

“It is clear that ticketing is far too complicated with a labyrinth of different fares and prices, which can be confusing for passengers. That’s why we have committed to the biggest overhaul of our railways in a generation, including simplifying fares to make travelling by train easier.”

1. Where it says "report back to the department", doesn't the department own and run Northern?

2. Reads like they have only just realised it's far too complicated.

[Electric train]

Would seem Northern Rail gone into a damage limitation mode

"Rail operator Northern is withdrawing all live prosecutions against passengers reported for using railcard discounts for on-peak services where the original fare was below £12".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c9dy8l8edpxo

[Ralph Ayres]

Perhaps there will now be a review of how such tickets are sold, and the warnings/reminders given at the time.  Railcard holders have some responsibility to be aware of the rules which apply to their card and I'm sure there are some who deliberately flout them, but many are likely to be making a genuine mistake.

Back when I had a Student Railcard, you would invariably buy your ticket at the ticket office just before catching the train, so you'd be reminded then if the minimum price time restriction applied, though I seem to remember I was well aware of it, being a fairly major and slightly annoying restriction which often influenced travel plans. Nowadays, buying the ticket away from the station well before travel, without any expert human assistance and possibly before your travel time has been finalised is common, so it's rather easier to overlook the restriction particularly if the ticket is shown as Anytime (terminology that didn't exist back in the day - I think the alternative to Off-peak was called "Standard" before that term was hijacked to replace Second Class).

[eightonedee]

1. Where it says "report back to the department", doesn't the department own and run Northern?

Nah, different office, guv. You don't want the lady with the red hair in Horseferry Road, you need to go to York to sort that out mate

Posted by: Chris from Nailsea
Insert Quote
Quote from: eightonedee on October 13, 2024, 19:39:01
Quote
The photo of the cardholder must meet our guidelines and be recognisable as the cardholder.

But - my senior railcard does not have my photo on it (unlike my old Network Card that accompanied my annual season)- is that also the case with other forum members?

Yes.

My Senior Railcard (for which I applied online in late May and received a few days later) does not have any facility for a photo.  That's why I always carry it in my wallet next to my driving licence - which does have a photo which looks remarkably like me, just in case I'm ever challenged.

Interestingly, my Senior Railcard, on the reverse, states that it is 'NOT VALID UNLESS SIGNED'. I have signed it, but why: what would any train manager or ticket barrier staff check that 'Authorised signature' against?

The system's a mess.

It rather looks like they have always done it that way, and no-one has thought about why anyone now needs to sign a card if they are not checking a signature (think old bank guarantee cards) or why they say the photo must be of the holder if they no longer put one on the card!