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Author Topic: Rail firms accused of misusing courts for ticket errors / fare evasion (merged posts)  (Read 16030 times)
Trowres
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« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2024, 21:25:38 »

An angle of the story not so far explored is that the passenger was travelling to London (via Manchester). Was the passenger travelling by rail all the way? Did they have a separate ticket for MAN-EUS? If so, why? (It's not always the case from lesser stations, but Broadbottom seems to have a reasonable availability of Advance Singles to EUS).


(edited to correct duplicated words)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2024, 23:41:08 by Trowres » Logged
Trowres
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« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2024, 21:57:44 »

Hey, I've found another link in the FAQs (Frequently Asked Questions) that takes one to the...Terms and ConditionsShocked

To save you the effort, its: https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/help/railcard-terms-conditions/.

This is going to be the real, definitive, thing, isn't it?

Quote
4.5. The 16-25 Railcard has a minimum fare that applies from 04.30 and 10.00 Monday to Friday. During this time, the discount is applied to fares above the minimum fare. This minimum fare does not apply to:

4.5.1. Advance tickets; or

4.5.2. journeys on public holidays; or

4.5.3. journeys during July and August.

I have emphasised the parts that seem to be incorrect. The first one is obvious. The second is wrong because it implies a 1/3 discount applying to all (full) fares of £12.01 and above. (In reality, 1/3 off 16-25 railcard fares are rounded up to £12 if necessary)

For final Hitchhiker effect, though, the next clause is great:
Quote
At the time of printing, the minimum fare is £12. The minimum fare is subject to change during the validity of your Railcard - check website for the most up to date information.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2024, 23:06:22 by Trowres » Logged
grahame
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« Reply #47 on: October 11, 2024, 01:12:37 »

A further case in The Mail

Quote
A rail passenger was slapped with a £460 fine and a criminal record after accidentally applying for a £1.60 discount on her ticket.

Cerys Piper was left aghast after finding out she would have to repay more than 100 times the value of her ticket after the mix-up in September last year on a Northern Railway service.

On a ticket sold to her by a member of staff

Quote
Cerys told The Bolton News that she was given the incorrect fare from a manned ticket office and had mistakenly thought it was correct.

She said: 'I'd gone to the lady at Daisy Hill train station and presented my 16-25 [railcard].

'She took it and said 'yeah that's fine' and handed me my ticket.

'I got on the train and then I was told my ticket was invalid and that I couldn't use it.'

Cerys, who works in an £11.44-an-hour job, said she wasn't aware she needed to go to Manchester Magistrates' Court and is now paying back the fine to her mother who helped her out with the cost.


and it's a tragedy that someone is put off train travel for 'life'

Quote
Cerys says she had been treated 'horrifically' by the rail company and the experience of getting on the train will 'never be the same'.

She said: 'It's just such sourness now getting on the train, because I used to love it, and it is kind of therapeutic.

'It shows you really do mean nothing to them, at all, to do that, but it is what it is.'

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« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2024, 05:56:17 »

Radio 5 had an interview with the passenger concerned at 05:52am on Friday(11 October 2024) with a follow up by a legal expert.
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« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2024, 13:11:46 »

Just for a bit of historic info...

1979 - 1980

50% discount on ordinary singles & returns and day returns (peak & off peak)

£2 min fare on ordinary singles & day returns
£4 min fare on ordinary returns

No cut off time for the minimum fares, they applied at all times except Saturdays, Sundays, Bank holidays and July & August.

By 1981 all was the same but a cut off time was introduced on weekdays ... 18.00hrs

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« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2024, 06:47:46 »

... and the BBC» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page)'s take on it https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvglzndx81ko
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JayMac
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« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2024, 00:56:11 »

Northern have, quite rightly in my opinion, dropped the case.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/czd12zedqzgo
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #52 on: October 13, 2024, 01:03:28 »

Good.  Lips sealed

I would like to think that they will also drop their case against Cerys Piper, now the media have got hold of the issue.  She bought her ticket from staff in a ticket office, and was told it was valid, for goodness' sake! Roll Eyes

From the Bolton News, see https://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/24641074.bolton-train-passenger-given-criminal-record-1-60-mix-up/

I find it interesting that both of those cases were brought by Northern - a publicly owned company.  Lips sealed

« Last Edit: October 13, 2024, 01:15:20 by Chris from Nailsea » Logged

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grahame
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« Reply #53 on: October 13, 2024, 05:42:08 »

Good.  Lips sealed

I would like to think that they will also drop their case against Cerys Piper, now the media have got hold of the issue.  She bought her ticket from staff in a ticket office, and was told it was valid, for goodness' sake! Roll Eyes

But CAN they?  Didn't I understand that her case has already been 'heard' and that she has now has a record.

Quote
I find it interesting that both of those cases were brought by Northern - a publicly owned company.  Lips sealed

Ditto.    I find it very hard to agree with the people who tell me that everything will be so much better when the railways are nationalised.  Don't get me going ...
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« Reply #54 on: October 13, 2024, 08:26:26 »

Good.  Lips sealed

I would like to think that they will also drop their case against Cerys Piper, now the media have got hold of the issue.  She bought her ticket from staff in a ticket office, and was told it was valid, for goodness' sake! Roll Eyes

But CAN they?  Didn't I understand that her case has already been 'heard' and that she has now has a record.

Quote
I find it interesting that both of those cases were brought by Northern - a publicly owned company.  Lips sealed

Ditto.    I find it very hard to agree with the people who tell me that everything will be so much better when the railways are nationalised.  Don't get me going ...

I believe the Court could instruct them to reopen the case.

On your second point I wholeheartedly agree. I've given up waiting for someone to tell me the positive difference GBR (Great British Railways)/"Shadow" GBR is going to make to the travelling public.

£50 million and counting...............
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ChrisB
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« Reply #55 on: October 13, 2024, 12:11:33 »

I don't think so - she has been fined already. Not sure it can go to the Court of Appeal, although it should.

Northern are following DfT» (Department for Transport - about) instructions. They ordered a crackdown. Talk to your friendly TOC (Train Operating Company), and I'm sure they'll fill you in. Don't need to be publicly owned either - all TOCs are under management contracts & have to do as they're told Shocked
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ChrisB
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« Reply #56 on: October 13, 2024, 12:40:06 »


There's a programme on the radio 4 linked to in that webpage above - worth a listen

What are the railways for?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001mc65

Quote
As the government prepares a major reorganisation of Britain's railways, Daniel Brittain asks what are they for. It's a question which has been ignored in previous reorganisations - which typically take place after a crisis or a disaster. So Daniel travels to Greater Manchester, meeting people on trains, people who want to be on trains, and those who run the railways, to understand how the rail industry has changed, and what its place in Britain's society, economy and culture might be in the future.
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grahame
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« Reply #57 on: October 13, 2024, 12:44:55 »

"There but for the grace of God go I" .... Senior Railcard Terms & Conditions updated, I note, on 9th September (no, I do not know what changed) and only valid until next May, even though my card does not expire until October ...

Quote
Senior Railcard Terms & Conditions
1. Introduction
1.1. These terms and conditions (“Railcard Conditions”) apply to the use of the Senior Railcard and reduced priced tickets (“discounted tickets”) bought with the Senior Railcard.
1.2. In addition to the Railcard Conditions, the National Rail Conditions of Travel (“NRCoT”) apply to any journey on the rail network. Where the NRCoT conflict with these Railcard Conditions, the NRCoT override the Railcard Conditions. Copies of the NRCoT are available online at nationalrail.co.uk/nrcot or at staffed National Rail stations.
1.3. These Railcard Conditions form a contract between you and ATOC» (Association of Train Operating Companies See - here) Ltd (Registered in England and Wales No. 03069033, Company Registered Office: First Floor North, 1 Puddle Dock, London, EC4V 3DS. ATOC Ltd enters into this contract on behalf of the train companies listed at railcard.co.uk/traincompanies (“Train Companies”).
1.4. Train Companies shall have rights under the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 to enforce any of these Railcard Conditions.
1.5. These Railcard Conditions are valid up to and including 31 May 2025.
1.6. Train Companies may change the Railcard Conditions during the validity of your Railcard.  Where possible, the Train Companies will communicate these changes to you by displaying information at stations at least three months prior to the change.
2. General conditions of use of the Railcard
2.1. If you have a physical Railcard, your Railcard is not valid, and you cannot use it, until you have signed it.
2.2. The Railcard does not become your property and, if requested:
2.2.1. You must hand it to a representative of any of the Train Companies, if you have a physical Railcard.
2.2.2. You must remove it from your mobile device if requested by a representative of any of the Train Companies, if you have a digital Railcard.
2.3. The Railcard and tickets bought with it are not transferable to anyone else and you must not give, lend, or resell them. Only the named cardholder can use the Railcard.
2.4. Train Companies will not issue refunds on unused/unwanted Railcards, or extend their validity period.
2.5. You may be asked to show your Railcard when purchasing discounted tickets.
2.6. Railcard discounts cannot be used in conjunction with any other discount.
2.7. You must buy the tickets before boarding the train unless:
2.7.1. there was no ticket office at the station at which you began the journey or if the ticket office was closed, and there was no working ticket machine from which you could buy discounted tickets; or
2.7.2. you have a disability which prevented you accessing ticket retailing facilities.
In these cases you will be able to use your Railcard to buy tickets on the train or at your destination.
2.8. You must carry your valid Railcard with you on your journey. When asked by rail staff, you must show a valid ticket and valid Railcard within its period of validity when you travel.
2.8.1. If you have a physical Railcard, it must be signed by you and should be legible so staff can read it, as further detailed in the NRCoT.
2.8.2. If you have a digital Railcard, you must be able to show it on a mobile device throughout your journey.
2.9 The photo of the cardholder must meet our guidelines and be recognisable as the cardholder.
2.10. If you fail to comply with condition 2.7, 2.8 and/or 2.9, the Train Company reserves the right to charge you the full price for the single fare applicable to your journey, as if no ticket had been purchased before starting the journey. In some cases you may also be issued with a Penalty Fare. If you are using your Railcard to get discounts for another person, they will also be charged the full price for the applicable single fare for their journey, as if no ticket had been purchased before starting the journey. In some cases they may also be issued with a Penalty Fare.
2.11. Fraudulent applications and fraudulent use of Railcards and Railcard discounted tickets may lead to criminal prosecution.
 
INFORMATION:
See the NRCoT for more information about Penalty Fares.
Railcard discounts do not apply to Season tickets, train company promotional tickets, Eurostar tickets, and most London Underground and DLR (Docklands Light Railway) tickets.
 
3. Replacing your lost, damaged or stolen Railcard
3.1. If you have a physical Railcard and lose or damage your Railcard or it is stolen, you can apply for a replacement. If you bought the original Railcard at a rail station, you can request a replacement only at a ticket office and you must show the completed ‘Receipt’ voucher from the original application form. You will be requested to show some form of identification when obtaining a replacement at a station. If you purchased your Railcard online, you must request a replacement online. 
3.2. You will only be issued with one replacement of a physical Railcard in any 12 month period, and you will need to pay an administration fee, unless your physical Railcard was stolen and you have a crime reference number or documentation issued by the Police. For  Senior Railcard, the administration fee is £10. 
3.3. If you have a digital Railcard and you lose or damage the mobile device that it is stored on, you can upload it to a new mobile device with no administration fee by accessing your online account at senior-railcard.co.uk.
4. Conditions of use of the Senior Railcard
4.1. You must be aged 60 years or over to purchase a Senior Railcard.
4.2. Discounts are not available on tickets for travel on morning peak services for journeys that start and end within the London & South East area (defined by the Network Railcard area – network-railcard.co.uk/map) on Monday to Friday (except on public holidays). The time when off-peak services start can vary by station. Use nationalrail.co.uk to plan your journey to identify when off-peak services start or ask rail staff for details.
 
Digital Railcard terms & Conditions
1. General
The 'Railcard' app is the digital Railcard storage app of ATOC Ltd, a company registered in England (No.03069033), whose registered office is at:
First Floor North, 1 Puddle Dock, London, EC4V 3DS
Operating under the name Rail Delivery Group (“RDG(resolve)”)
'Railcard' is offered as a free service to you, the user, by RDG for the purpose of storing and displaying your Railcard, via supported mobile phones and hardware. By installing the 'Railcard' App, you agree to be bound by these terms of use. Please review them carefully before installation and/or acceptance. If you do not agree with these terms and conditions, then you should uninstall the 'Railcard' app and cease using it.
2. Definitions
The ‘Railcard' app shall mean the software provided by RDG to display a travel discount card, to be used on Apple iOS, Android, and any upgrades from time to time and any other software or documentation which enables the use of the 'Railcard' app.
3. Conditions of use
3.1. You will not, nor allow third parties on your behalf to (i) make and distribute copies of the 'Railcard' app (ii) attempt to copy, reproduce, alter, modify, reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile, transfer, exchange or translate the 'Railcard' app; or (iii) create derivative works of the 'Railcard' app of any kind whatsoever.
3.2. The 'Railcard' app is currently made available to you free of charge for your personal, non-commercial use. RDG reserves the right to amend or withdraw the 'Railcard' app, or charge for the application or service provided to you in accordance with these terms and conditions, at any time and for any reason.
3.3. You acknowledge that the terms of agreement with your respective mobile network provider ('Mobile Provider') will continue to apply when using the 'Railcard' app. As a result, you may be charged by the Mobile Provider for access to network connection services for the duration of the connection while accessing the 'Railcard' app or any such third-party charges as may arise. You accept responsibility for any such charges that arise.
3.4. If you are not the bill payer for the mobile telephone or handheld device being used to access the 'Railcard' app, you will be assumed to have received permission from the bill payer for using the 'Railcard' app.
4. Availability
4.1. The 'Railcard' app is available to handheld mobile devices running Apple iOS and Android OS (Ordnance Survey). RDG will use reasonable efforts to make the 'Railcard' app available at all times. However, you acknowledge the 'Railcard' app is provided over the internet and mobile networks and so the quality and availability of the 'Railcard' app may be affected by factors outside RDG’s reasonable control.
4.2. RDG does not accept any responsibility whatsoever for unavailability of the 'Railcard' App, or any difficulty or inability to download or access content or any other communication system failure which may result in the 'Railcard' app being unavailable.
4.3. RDG will not be responsible for any support or maintenance for the 'Railcard' app.
5. System requirements
5.1. In order to use the 'Railcard' app, you are required to have a compatible mobile telephone or handheld device, internet access, and the necessary minimum specifications ('Software Requirements').
5.2. The Software Requirements are as follows: Apple iOS 14.0 and above and Android 7.0 and above.
5.3. The version of the 'Railcard' app software may be upgraded from time to time to add support for new functions and services.
6. Personal information and privacy
6.1. Introduction
In order for us to provide some of the services in the 'Railcard' app we will need to collect information from you.  By using these services or providing us with information you consent to the collection, use and transfer of your information under the terms of this policy.
6.2. Personal Information Collected
6.2.1. Active Collection of Information
Some areas of the 'Railcard' app require us to collect and use your information for example location information in order for you to benefit from specific features.
We only collect and use such information unless you opt not to receive such additional features.
Your location data may also be used by our contracted partners to provide you with personalised offers and promotions based on non-identifying data and geo-location data. For the purpose of this service, we only share technical data with our partners (such as your mobile advertising IDs) to ensure that we do not identify you as a person.
We may also use your location information for the purpose of improving the journey experience we provide to you.
If you wish to opt-out of these particular services, you can use the “opt-out of interest-based advertising (https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/3405269)” option on Android or the “Limit Ad-Tracking(support.apple.com/kb/HT4228)” option on iOS.
6.2.2. Passive Collection of Information
We may collect and process anonymous information about your use of the 'Railcard' app, such as some of the pages you visit and some of the searches you perform. Such information is used by us to help us improve the contents of the site and to compile, for internal market research purposes, aggregate statistics about individuals using it.  This kind of anonymous information can be obtained by our use of "cookies" as well as other means. Please see our "Use of Cookies" section below for more information on our use of cookies.
We may also share anonymous information about your use of the 'Railcard' app with third parties for analytical purposes.
6.3. How we use your Personal Information
When you supply personal information to RDG we will use it for the following purposes:
We and/or the train companies whose information is provided in the 'Railcard' app may also use your information: (a) for internal market research and analysis purposes; and (b) to carry out survey related activities with you.
We will not share or distribute any of the information you provide to us to unaffiliated third parties, unless required to do so by law.
We will only collect and use your information for the services to be provided and the duration required for the provision of the services.  We may need to retain the information for a reasonable period of time after the end of the services.
6.4. Sharing of Information
The information you provide to us may need to be accessed by our staff, service providers and train operating companies.
Where you have consented to receive such services we will share your information with contracted third parties for the purpose of:
(a) providing the services and customer service assistance;
(b) marketing services; and
(c) advertising
These service providers will only have access to the information needed to perform the relevant service and may not use your information for any other purpose.  They will also be required to use your information strictly in accordance with data protection laws, including maintaining adequate security measures to protect such information.
6.5. Links to third party Internet sites
The 'Railcard' app may contain links to other sites and sources of information. By clicking on these, you will leave the 'Railcard' app and this Privacy Policy will not apply to your use of any other sites.
6.6. Data Security
We employ administrative, electronic and physical security measures to ensure that the information that we collect about you is protected from access by unauthorised persons and protected against unlawful processing, accidental loss, destruction and damage. By using our website and/or services you acknowledge and agree that, except to the extent required by the Data Protection laws, we shall not be responsible for any unauthorised use, distribution, damage or destruction of personal data. We will only retain your information for a reasonable period or as long as is required by law.
We may link you to third party websites which have their own privacy policies. We do not accept any responsibility or liability for the privacy policies, content or security of these websites.
6.7. Changes to this Privacy Policy
There may be changes in how we use your data.  All such changes will be notified to you by updating this Privacy Policy.
7. Intellectual property rights and licence
7.1. All trade marks, copyright, database rights and other intellectual property rights of any nature in the 'Railcard' app together with the underlying software code are owned either directly by RDG or by RDG’s licensors.
7.2. RDG hereby grants you a non-exclusive, royalty-free revocable licence to use the 'Railcard' app for your personal use in connection with the use of the NRE(resolve) Website and in accordance with these terms and conditions.
8. Termination
8.1. RDG may terminate use of the 'Railcard' app at any time by giving notice of termination to you.
8.2. Upon any termination,
(a) the rights and licenses granted to you herein shall terminate; and
(b) you must cease all use of the Software;
9. Limitation of liability
9.1. In no event will RDG be liable for any direct, indirect, special, punitive, exemplary or consequential losses or damages of whatsoever kind arising out of your use or access to the 'Railcard' app, including loss of profit or the like whether or not in the contemplation of the parties, whether based on breach of contract, tort (including negligence), product liability or otherwise.
9.2. RDG is not liable to you for any damage or alteration to your equipment including but not limited to computer equipment, handheld device or mobile telephones as a result of the installation or use of the 'Railcard' app.
9.3. Nothing in these terms and conditions shall exclude or limit RDG’s liability for death or personal injury caused by negligence or for fraud or fraudulent misrepresentation or any other liability which cannot be excluded or limited under applicable law.
9.4. RDG accepts no liability for the content of any third party content advertised on the 'Railcard' app or any transactions made by you in respect of such content. If you object to any such content you should uninstall the 'Railcard' app.
10. Disclaimer of warranties
To the maximum extent permitted by law RDG hereby disclaims all implied warranties with regard to the 'Railcard' app. The 'Railcard' app and software are provided "as is" and "as available" without warranty of any kind.
 
Last updated 9 September 2024

I live outside the Network South East area, and it was only in speaking with another member yesterday that I was reminded "Discounts are not available on tickets for travel on morning peak services for journeys that start and end within the London & South East area" - so that if I wish to travel at 06:24 from Exeter St Davids to Worcester Shrub Hill (both in NSE (Network South East) through a quirk of geography) tomorrow, I cannot legally get a Senior Railcard discount.  I can get one illegally - the GWR (Great Western Railway) app offers it to me without warning, and I could end up with a criminal record ...

Of course, I HAVE come across this rule before ... and know that journeys from Exeter up The Mule should start at Exeter St Thomas to travel discounted early on a weekday morning!
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« Reply #58 on: October 13, 2024, 13:00:25 »

4.2. Discounts are not available on tickets for travel on morning peak services for journeys that start and end within the London & South East area (defined by the Network Railcard area – network-railcard.co.uk/map) on Monday to Friday (except on public holidays).

Oh dear....another update likely....
Quote
404 Page Not Found
Unfortunately, this page could not be found:
https://www.network-railcard.co.uk/using-your-railcard/railcard-area/
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« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2024, 13:13:55 »

Fond recollections at this point of the peace of mind and utility offered as the one time holder of an annual season ticket holder's gold card's *second railcard for a nominated person*.

I'm not sure that the 'Nominated second railcard holder's card' is a thing any more, and also, the current validity map for the Gold card (on the link below) for the annual gold card discount... it seems to be the old Network South East area and a bit more besides. As far as I can recall, at one time wasn't it UK (United Kingdom)-wide? I've totally forgotten the restrictions if any on the second holder's card but pretty sure that none involved the evening peak.

Mark

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/23LngqwDfggHprWTDmhnLP/cb14d3813ce376a5d319790c0955dada/Gold_Card_Area_of_Validity_Map_June_2023.pdf
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