Rail firms accused of misusing courts for ticket errors / fare evasion (merged posts)

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Mondays to Fridays valid from 09:00 plus the following services, for boarding at any station en route:

08:03 Axminster - Salisbury (London Waterloo service)08:39 Patchway - Taunton08:53 Weymouth - Gloucester08:36 Taunton - Bristol Parkway08:50 Great Malvern - Westbury08:27 Swindon - Taunton08:40 Swindon - Cheltenham Spa

Err ... there isn't an 08:27  from Swindon to Taunton and beyond, nor at 08:40 to Cheltenham Spa these days, I don't think?   Nor an 08:53 Weymouth to Gloucester or an 08:50 Great Malvern to Westbury ...

[brooklea]

Mondays to Fridays valid from 09:00 plus the following services, for boarding at any station en route:

08:03 Axminster - Salisbury (London Waterloo service)08:39 Patchway - Taunton08:53 Weymouth - Gloucester08:36 Taunton - Bristol Parkway08:50 Great Malvern - Westbury08:27 Swindon - Taunton08:40 Swindon - Cheltenham Spa

Err ... there isn't an 08:27  from Swindon to Taunton and beyond, nor at 08:40 to Cheltenham Spa these days, I don't think?   Nor an 08:53 Weymouth to Gloucester or an 08:50 Great Malvern to Westbury ...

Hey, don’t shoot the messenger - it must be right if it’s on National Rail 

But more seriously, yet another example of how over-complicated things are, to the extent that the industry can’t keep it’s own information up-to-date. I think only two, or possibly three of those specified trains are even close to still existing (08:04 Axminster - Salisbury, 08:40 Patchway - Taunton and perhaps 08:29 Swindon - Cheltenham).

The GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) website appears to steer clear of specifying any exceptions, but in common with the SWR^» (South Western Railway - about) website gets it wrong by saying

Available after 09:00

when it should say “from 09:00”.

Is there anyone responsible for getting this information correct, other than the unfortunate passenger who falls foul of ‘the system’?

“Not clever” is, I think, the phrase to use?

[Phantom]

What is a "Promise to pay" voucher?

[brooklea]

What is a "Promise to pay" voucher?

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares

What is a Promise to Pay notice?

A Promise to Pay notice is a ticket that must be obtained from our ticket vending machines if customers do not have the facility to pay by credit/debit card. The Promise to Pay notice allows customers to board the train with the intention of exchanging the notice at the first opportunity with a revenue officer, or at the next available booking office.

Essentially allows you to pay by cash where the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine) at the station you board at takes card/contactless payments only.

[Mark A]

On the link below, the 'X' thread from the O.P. dated October 8th, kindly retrieved by the threadreaderapp bot so that you don't need to visit that hellsite.

Northern is continuing to grind through their process, but surely for this one and all similar in particular, the railway should reiterate instructions to staff to simply excess whatever someone's paid up to the appropriate fare (which will not be the £12 railcard minimum)?

Another aspect to this is that if the railway has a paying customer (they have a ticket albeit not valid on that train 'cos 'Small-print') who is young and a regular user of the rail system (they've invested in a railcard) the railway should bear in mind the prospective lifetime use of rail as a travel mode and not snark-fish them when something's minorly wrong with their ticket.

There are 1001 examples of people actually intentionally defrauding the railways, this approach smacks of setting something up to make the honest ones an easy target, going for them, and ignoring the actual issue.

And yes, why the civil/criminal split, rail ticket irregularities versus various driving... irregularities. The guy doing 40 in a 20 who nevertheless had time to stop and bad mouth me when he was surprised by me crossing the road... he was the one who could do with the risk of landing himself the criminal record.

Mark


https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1843731064025690266.html

[TaplowGreen]

On the link below, the 'X' thread from the O.P. dated October 8th, kindly retrieved by the threadreaderapp bot so that you don't need to visit that hellsite.

Northern is continuing to grind through their process, but surely for this one and all similar in particular, the railway should reiterate instructions to staff to simply excess whatever someone's paid up to the appropriate fare (which will not be the £12 railcard minimum)?

Another aspect to this is that if the railway has a paying customer (they have a ticket albeit not valid on that train 'cos 'Small-print') who is young and a regular user of the rail system (they've invested in a railcard) the railway should bear in mind the prospective lifetime use of rail as a travel mode and not snark-fish them when something's minorly wrong with their ticket.

There are 1001 examples of people actually intentionally defrauding the railways, this approach smacks of setting something up to make the honest ones an easy target, going for them, and ignoring the actual issue.

And yes, why the civil/criminal split, rail ticket irregularities versus various driving... irregularities. The guy doing 40 in a 20 who nevertheless had time to stop and bad mouth me when he was surprised by me crossing the road... he was the one who could do with the risk of landing himself the criminal record.

Mark


https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1843731064025690266.html

You're right, there should be room for discretion but this again demonstrates the cultural challenge the railway faces when it comes to its attitude to its customers.

Far easier to tap the rulebook and fold your arms rather than seeing the bigger picture & putting the (possibly lifelong) customer first.

[didcotdean]

An Australian study analysed fare evasion into 4 categories: accidental, "not my fault", calculated risk taker, and career evaders. The attached figure gives some characteristics of each type.

The people in question are claiming that they are in the not at fault category; they had no intention to evade but this happened because the barriers to buying a correct ticket (complicated interactions between the poor naming of types of ticket, time of day, complicated railcard restrictions varying on what day of the week or month of the year it is) led them to buying an inappropriate one.

Northern (& apparently the legal system to date) are treating them as calculated risk takers. They picked from a list of train times and bought a ticket only offered for a later train but deliberately used it on an earlier one when it had not been offered. They knew what they were doing and the risk they were taking, and maybe did it regularly.

For any specific individual case either of these could be the "right" description. However, it makes sense to attempt to reduce the not my faulters by better design of fare systems. They aren't where the bulk of revenue is being lost.

[ChrisB]

Agree with all suggestions made (for the first time that the error is made & explained)

Caught again, and the operator can have more discretion. Repeat offenders can & do use this way of paying less.

[grahame]

An Australian study analysed fare evasion into 4 categories: accidental, "not my fault", calculated risk taker, and career evaders. The attached figure gives some characteristics of each type.

Abstract at https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1369847816303321

Good further analysis

For any specific individual case either of these could be the "right" description. However, it makes sense to attempt to reduce the not my faulters by better design of fare systems. They aren't where the bulk of revenue is being lost.

Agreed ... and I would have some difficultly in drawing a line between some "accident" and "not my fault" especially where the system requires an IQ of 160 and a degree in rail fares to get it right.

[ChrisB]

The railcard holder would have been supplied with the T&Cs for that railcard on purchase of same. If they then choose NOT to read those T&Cs, you can't really blame the train operator....it's nowt to do with the ticket.

[Mark A]

This sort of issue always puts me in mind of Douglas Adams's writing as it skewered organisations who take this approach.

Mark


“But the plans were on display…”

“On display? I eventually had to go down to the cellar to find them.”

“That’s the display department.”

“With a flashlight.”

“Ah, well, the lights had probably gone.”
“So had the stairs.”

“But look, you found the notice, didn’t you?”

“Yes,” said Arthur, “yes I did. It was on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying ‘Beware of the Leopard.”

― Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy

https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/40705-but-the-plans-were-on-display-on-display-i-eventually

[Trowres]

The railcard holder would have been supplied with the T&Cs for that railcard on purchase of same. If they then choose NOT to read those T&Cs, you can't really blame the train operator....it's nowt to do with the ticket.

But, continuing Mark A's Hitchhiker theme with a look at the railcard site https://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/ itself:-

• Helpfully provides an info bullet: £12 minimum fare applies on morning peak; that's a bit vague though... want more detail
• Big button Read full eligibility and usage terms
• Big button takes you to a page that has eligibility, but nothing on usage.
• Going down to the basement (of the webpage) you see a link Travel times and tickets
• The link takes you to Frequently asked questions
• Click on Validity or scroll down until you get to the FAQ^▸ (Frequently Asked Questions): Can I use my 16-25 Railcard at any time of day?
  

AT LAST! Your quest is complete. You are rewarded with the answer:

A:

Yes you can. However, for all journeys made between 4:30am and 10:00am Monday to Friday a minimum fare of £12 is payable, excluding Advance fares. There is no minimum fare when you travel at weekends, on Public Holidays, or during July and August.

Now you know that the morning peak ends at 10:00.
Or does it end at 09:59?

Can you get a 16-25 fare for a train departing at 10:00?

[ChrisB]

1000 is excluded - you can use it from 1001.

[Trowres]

1000 is excluded - you can use it from 1001.

Chris, that would also be my interpretation of the text.

However a quick test using the National Rail Journey Planner (in its latest, crappy, form), Euston to Watford Junction on Friday morning, indicates that the £12.00 minimum does not apply to a 10:00 scheduled departure.

 

[JayMac]

1000 is excluded - you can use it from 1001.

Chris, that would also be my interpretation of the text.

However a quick test using the National Rail Journey Planner (in its latest, crappy, form), Euston to Watford Junction on Friday morning, indicates that the £12.00 minimum does not apply to a 10:00 scheduled departure.

 

And I've just tested Paddington to Maidenhead. 0948 is £12. 1000 is £10.45.