Network Rail to abolish station toilet charges in 2019

[whole diary]

[Surrey 455]

I'd forgotten about Clapham Junction. The toilet provision there is very poor. Just one small toilet for 17 platforms stuck at the end of the footbridge by the Brighton Yard entrance.

[Timmer]

I'd forgotten about Clapham Junction. The toilet provision there is very poor. Just one small toilet for 17 platforms stuck at the end of the footbridge by the Brighton Yard entrance.

Yeah and they have the audacity to charge for them pretty disgusting the last time I used them.

[broadgage]

This may increase the reliability and availability of toilets on trains.
At present I suspect that many passengers use the free on train toilets instead of the paid for facilities at stations.

Free toilets at stations should reduce on train demand, and hopefully reduce the number of empty water tanks and/or full waste tanks.

However my natural cynicism suggests a couple of other less favourable outcomes, firstly it could be used to justify the introduction of more "metro style" trains without toilets, Crossrail has shown the way here.
Secondly, it could be used to justify the removal of some toilets on existing trains in order to provide "thousands of extra seats" as an alternative to full length trains.

[Timmer]

Secondly, it could be used to justify the removal of some toilets on existing trains in order to provide "thousands of extra seats" as an alternative to full length trains.

This has already happened on newer trains even in the later days of BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) when you compare an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) set and a rake of Mk4 coaches with one toilet per carriage on a Mk4 compared to two per carriage on a Mk3. Though FGW^▸ (First Great Western) removed two toilets from coaches A and H as was.

[hassaanhc]

I'd forgotten about Clapham Junction. The toilet provision there is very poor. Just one small toilet for 17 platforms stuck at the end of the footbridge by the Brighton Yard entrance.

It indeed is. Although still marginally better than nearby Putney, which has nothing at all for a station that had almost 9 million passengers in 2016-17 then there is Vauxhall with nothing either, and that had 22.5 million passengers in 2016-17, although at least the bus station outside has toilets.

[Bmblbzzz]

Or to take another view of it, at least the charge at British stations (and generally at British public toilets) is a simple charge to enter the facilities; in some places it's a separate charge for each of urinal, cubicle, toilet paper, handwashing, and though the total may only be the same as the 30p or whatever it is here, there's an obvious incentive to skip procedures...

[IndustryInsider]

Secondly, it could be used to justify the removal of some toilets on existing trains in order to provide "thousands of extra seats" as an alternative to full length trains.

This has already happened on newer trains even in the later days of BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) when you compare an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) set and a rake of Mk4 coaches with one toilet per carriage on a Mk4 compared to two per carriage on a Mk3. Though FGW^▸ (First Great Western) removed two toilets from coaches A and H as was.

One toilet per carriage on a long distance train is usually adequate, as long as they are all in serviceable condition.  I think all new national rail stock should have to have at least one toilet, Crossrail trains should have two.

[Rhydgaled]

One toilet per carriage on a long distance train is usually adequate, as long as they are all in serviceable condition.  I think all new national rail stock should have to have at least one toilet, Crossrail trains should have two.

I think it should be one toilet per coach on intercity and regional trains and perhaps one per 2-3 coaches on suburban stock (including Crossrail).

Secondly, it could be used to justify the removal of some toilets on existing trains in order to provide "thousands of extra seats" as an alternative to full length trains.

This has already happened on newer trains even in the later days of BR^▸ (British Rail(ways)) when you compare an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) set and a rake of Mk4 coaches with one toilet per carriage on a Mk4 compared to two per carriage on a Mk3. Though FGW^▸ (First Great Western) removed two toilets from coaches A and H as was.

I think I read somewhere that mark 3s are being reduced from two toilets to one due to the need to install retention tanks (two loos might fill the tank up faster?). I'm not sure if that's true, but since the mrk4s have retention tanks (I think), that could be the reason they only have one loo per coach... Rather alarmingly, Angel Trains' website appears to show no toilet on their 158s (click the 'view carriage blueprints' button to view the full interior layout). Ditto the 153 page (which also has a rather strange looking photo of a 150).

[grahame]

Rather alarmingly, Angel Trains' website appears to show no toilet on their 158s (click the 'view carriage blueprints' button to view the full interior layout). Ditto the 153 page (which also has a rather strange looking photo of a 150).

As things stand, the 153s cannot run as single carriage trains beyond 2020, I don't think. That's because their present loos are not equality compliant.   A number of possible solutions including:
1. Fit a disabled loo (but you remove quite a number of seats from an already-tiny offering
2. Replace the loo with more seats (but you have problems of trains with no toilets)
3. Withdraw them from service (but will we ever have enough stock?)
4. Run them purely as strengtheners to other units which have disable loos.
5. Couple them in permanent pairs with one of the pair having a big loo and the other no loo at all
6. Provide a dispensation to allow them to continue as they are

[JayMac]

153s in their present guise can run beyond 31st December 2019.

The same goes for any passenger rail vehicle that isn't Equality Act compliant.

All that's needed is an exemption to the Act, which can be granted by the Secretary of State. Section 183(1) of said Act permits this.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/183

I fully expect we'll see some exemptions granted.

[grahame]

153s in their present guise can run beyond 31st December 2019.

The same goes for any passenger rail vehicle that isn't Equality Act compliant.

All that's needed is an exemption to the Act, which can be granted by the Secretary of State. Section 183(1) of said Act permits this.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/183

I fully expect we'll see some exemptions granted.

so option (6) of my list is your bet

[PhilWakely]

As things stand, the 153s cannot run as single carriage trains beyond 2020, I don't think. That's because their present loos are not equality compliant.   A number of possible solutions including:
....
5. Couple them in permanent pairs with one of the pair having a big loo and the other no loo at all
..

You mean, reinstate the Class 155 with modifications to the toilet.

[Bmblbzzz]

Rather alarmingly, Angel Trains' website appears to show no toilet on their 158s (click the 'view carriage blueprints' button to view the full interior layout). Ditto the 153 page (which also has a rather strange looking photo of a 150).

As things stand, the 153s cannot run as single carriage trains beyond 2020, I don't think. That's because their present loos are not equality compliant.   A number of possible solutions including:
1. Fit a disabled loo (but you remove quite a number of seats from an already-tiny offering
2. Replace the loo with more seats (but you have problems of trains with no toilets)
3. Withdraw them from service (but will we ever have enough stock?)
4. Run them purely as strengtheners to other units which have disable loos.
5. Couple them in permanent pairs with one of the pair having a big loo and the other no loo at all
6. Provide a dispensation to allow them to continue as they are

So one solution to the problem of the loo not being accessible to all would be to get rid of the loo for everyone? As is fairly often the case, equality and fairness come into conflict. 

[ChrisB]

Are there any stations where TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) charge?

Chiltern - Marylebone

So, reading through the posts above, my understanding is that it will take Network Rail at least a year just to disable some existing toilet turnstiles and change machines at their stations -  but they intend to install new drinking fountains, 'starting with Charing Cross', within one month.

What am I missing? 

Who's going to pay for the security that will now be needed to keep out undesirables? And who know gets the cleaning costs unsubsidised?

Yup - NR^» (Network Rail - home page). New budget starts next year....nothing in current budget.

[TaplowGreen]

Are there any stations where TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) charge?

Chiltern - Marylebone

So, reading through the posts above, my understanding is that it will take Network Rail at least a year just to disable some existing toilet turnstiles and change machines at their stations -  but they intend to install new drinking fountains, 'starting with Charing Cross', within one month.

What am I missing? 

Who's going to pay for the security that will now be needed to keep out undesirables? And who know gets the cleaning costs unsubsidised?

Yup - NR^» (Network Rail - home page). New budget starts next year....nothing in current budget.

......hark.....I hear the first "Oooooooooooooos gunna pay for it?" of Spring!