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Author Topic: The End Of Diesel Traction In The UK?  (Read 12174 times)
eXPassenger
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« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2018, 15:38:03 »

The response of The Guardian is that if there is no electrification and diesels are to be phased out then it is back to steam:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/12/diesel-steam-trains-rail-electricity

The comments are terrific.
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stuving
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« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2018, 16:00:49 »

The end of internal combustion cars (on new sale) announced for the same date was a non-announcement as technological development means only niche cars (Ferraris, for instance) will have any use for petrol or diesel engines by then. It happens regardless of ministerial announcements. With trains, the technology is also here, but depends on government investment (or a radical rethink of rail privatisation).

That may be so, but there is still a false equivalence being drawn between the last sale of IC (Inter City) cars and the last withdrawal, of solely IC trains, even more so given the longer lifetime of a train.

But in practice, it's not so different from what the industry has being forecasting. Last year's rolling stock strategy document scaled back the rate of replacement of diesels by electric trains a little compared with  earlier ones (and note that in that report bi-modes count as electric). The forecast numbers for 2044 (as at 2015, pre-Hendy) or 2046 (as at 2017) were:
2044: 1234 diesel out of 22031 (6%)
2044: 2460 diesel out of 21136 (12%)
(both are the middle of three forecasts for different levels of increase).

Both forecasts assume that every diesel engine not meeting NRMM IIIA or B will never be replaced, and all such trains (i.e earlier than classes 800 and 68) will be scrapped before then.

So on that basis the industry is likely to say "So? What's the problem?".
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2018, 16:35:32 »

The end of internal combustion cars (on new sale) announced for the same date was a non-announcement as technological development means only niche cars (Ferraris, for instance) will have any use for petrol or diesel engines by then. It happens regardless of ministerial announcements. With trains, the technology is also here, but depends on government investment (or a radical rethink of rail privatisation).

That may be so, but there is still a false equivalence being drawn between the last sale of IC (Inter City) cars and the last withdrawal, of solely IC trains, even more so given the longer lifetime of a train.
True. Even if we assume the end of mass petrol and diesel car sales comes in 2030, there will still be plenty around in 2040 and there's no date set for their withdrawal from road use.

Quote
But in practice, it's not so different from what the industry has being forecasting. Last year's rolling stock strategy document scaled back the rate of replacement of diesels by electric trains a little compared with  earlier ones (and note that in that report bi-modes count as electric). The forecast numbers for 2044 (as at 2015, pre-Hendy) or 2046 (as at 2017) were:
2044: 1234 diesel out of 22031 (6%)
2044: 2460 diesel out of 21136 (12%)
(both are the middle of three forecasts for different levels of increase).

Both forecasts assume that every diesel engine not meeting NRMM IIIA or B will never be replaced, and all such trains (i.e earlier than classes 800 and 68) will be scrapped before then.

So on that basis the industry is likely to say "So? What's the problem?".

Interesting to see the figures.
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2018, 16:46:28 »

Quote
For example, the much derided Pacers are going.

Along with other long-standing members of the fleet like Intercity 125s….

Going... North?
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JayMac
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« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2018, 17:06:46 »

Also going for an extended holiday in the west country.
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martyjon
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« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2018, 17:18:35 »

Also going for an extended holiday in the west country.

Don't you mean a well earned retirement in the west country to continue to serve the retired passengers they served loyally during their more intensive working days.
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Witham Bobby
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« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2018, 17:36:59 »

I hope that BoJo never notices the railway heritage movement's continuing use of coal
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ChrisB
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« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2018, 17:47:25 »

Surely, you mean JoJo?
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Bob_Blakey
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« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2018, 18:52:31 »

My immediate reaction to JoJo's statement was 'how are you going to reconcile this with your boss refusing to approve any significant expansion of the electrified railway network?'

Lack of joined up thinking by the government - no change there then.
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Surrey 455
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« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2018, 20:06:21 »

Maybe in his youth Mr Johnson had a train with a key coming out of it, and thinks it can be scaled up!

A clockwork train! I like that. It's got green credentials. Now how often will you have to wind it up during the journey / day? Grin
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Witham Bobby
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« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2018, 21:32:31 »

Surely, you mean JoJo?

Yes I do. 
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eightf48544
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« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2018, 14:16:29 »

Hydrogen see http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=19251.0

Although how many fuel cells you'll need to generate 3800hp to replace a 68 I don't know.

What about diesel ships isn't shipping suppose to be very polluting?
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2018, 14:42:53 »

What about diesel ships isn't shipping suppose to be very polluting?

There was a study a few years ago which, rather taken out of context, suggested that ships were much worse than they actually are. It was actually a thought experiment which compared the amount of SOx potentially produced by a few of the biggest ships if they ran on the filthiest bunker oil, with the 'cleanest' diesel cars. As it happens, the pollution from ships has diminished since 2007 because they're all going slower to save fuel...

That's not to say there's no scope for improvement, of course... hydrogen fuel cells, anyone?
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Bmblbzzz
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« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2018, 15:59:43 »

Carbon-based lever-operative propulsion system? Worked for the Greeks!

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TonyK
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« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2018, 16:45:16 »

That usage if "mine" is a puzzle - I've given that sentence a severe kicking, and it refuses to reveal any useful meaning. Perhaps it just implies that the organisers (Eventbrite) are commercially exploiting the current unease created by not knowing what counts as knowledge any more.

Who knows what counts as knowledge these days?

(This was rhetorical: please don't post the obvious answer!)

Ye gods. Who wrote that? Malcolm Tucker or Sir Humphrey?

Way too few expletives for Malcolm Tucker...  Grin

... with whom nothing rhymes...

Carbon-based lever-operative propulsion system? Worked for the Greeks!



"Row, row, row the boat
Gently down the rails
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily
Don't forget the sails."

I hope that BoJo never notices the railway heritage movement's continuing use of coal
Surely, you mean JoJo?

BoJo and JoJo will enter the language like BoBo and CoCo.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 17:01:27 by Four Track, Now! » Logged

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