Late nights and senior cards

[whole diary]

[grahame]

On Friday evening I had a meeting in Bridgend and found myself back at Bath Bus station at 11 p.m. to catch the late night service home to Melksham.  7 passengers on board from Bath Bus station - more joined along the way, some alighted [got off] along the way. Total of 19 users on the journey.   That's rather less than I would have expected on a Friday night, but the weather was brutally cold and I suspect that suppressed the leisure market that evening, together with the further natural low at this time of year in that market.

Councils are only legally obliged to pay for ENCTS^▸ (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) (senior bus pass journeys) for journeys starting between 09:30 and 23:00, so there is no legal requirement on them to pay for (so bus operators to accept) such cards on the last buses on routes 267 (to Frome), 265 (to Yarnbrook via Trowbridge) or 271 (to Devizes via Melksham). In fact, BaNES council pays for journeys for their car holders after 11 p.m., but the cut off - in theory - for Wiltshire cards is at that time.  All of which would be an admin nightmare were in enforced in that way.

I've used this bus before ... know the experience quite well ... but on Friday I was on the lookout to see how many  passengers looked as if they were using senior passes.  Reason being I have asked about the anomaly and got a very strong negative response - including a suggestion to retime the bus to 22:59 - from a single individual who's a senior.   Never bumped into him on the bus, mind you.    Well - I think he's going to be in luck - there was just one passenger on the bus who looked old enough to be on a senior card, and the pragmatic view will surely be taken to not change the current system - it ain't rely bust and doesn't need fixing .... and XX can continue to have his fare home paid by me and the other taxpayers after a night out in Bath if he even actually uses that service!

22:59 would be an impractical change without altering other services with the same vehicle, and would (I'm pretty sure) be pretty uniformly unwelcome to the current people who really use it ... the 21:30 service - which was added to fill the 3 hour evening gap (within the last couple of years) may perhaps have a different senior profile.

[eightf48544]

We don't seem to have caught up with the 24/7 economy with day tickets, car parks etc expiring at midnight even if the last rain arrives later.

In Germany most Tageskarte expire at 03:00

[Adelante_CCT]

there was just one passenger on the bus who looked old enough to be on a senior card

Was that you 

[grahame]

there was just one passenger on the bus who looked old enough to be on a senior card

Was that you 

I'll let you be the judge of whether or not I look old enough to be on a senior card 

I am not old enough under current rules to hold an ENCTS^▸ (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) card - though I do have a senior railcard.  I suppose - if you think I look that old - there were two passengers on the bus who looked old enough to hold a card ... but I happened to know that one doesn't!

With my evening meeting in Bridgend, I travelled out from Melksham with First Group with a train change at Swindon.   I returned, also all the way from Bridgend to Melksham with First Group, changes at Cardiff, Bristol Temple Meads and Bath Spa.  Had to go that way because we don't yet have a late train (22:43 off SWI^» (Swindon - next trains) would be lovely) and of course the cheeky b*ggers who run the buses won't accept a rail ticket to get you back even after the last train has gone and fares for both train and bus go to the same company.

[froome]

Funnily enough, this was an issue I was thinking about this weekend. As a B&NES resident and holder of a senior bus pass (but not the person Graham refers  ), I do feel privileged to be able to use my pass outside of the strict 09.30-23.00 window for these, and did wonder what happened if you used it then on a cross-boundary service. My assumption was that they would be accepted for the whole journey. I've yet to try boarding a bus right on the dot of 9am to see how accurately they time the pass's acceptance.

[GBM]

I've yet to try boarding a bus right on the dot of 9am to see how accurately they time the pass's acceptance.

In Kernowland Ticketer machines will not issue a concessionary ticket before 09h30 or after 23h00.  Driver has little choice!  If a pass is presented to the machine it won't accept it until the bewitching hours are passed.
On Park for Truro I believe, the machines at the car park offices will accept payment from 09h27 so technically you may board a bus before 09h30.  The problem would be the Ticketer on the bus will not accept driver input of said passes before 09h30 so you are travelling with 'illegal' passengers for 3 minutes.

[Surrey 455]

We don't seem to have caught up with the 24/7 economy with day tickets, car parks etc expiring at midnight even if the last rain arrives later.

In Germany most Tageskarte expire at 03:00

It's 4.30am in London.

From https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/ways-to-pay/travelcards#on-this-page-1

Day Travelcards
Day Travelcards are issued as paper tickets and allow unlimited travel in a single day within the zones it is valid for.

Depending on the time of day of travel, different types of Day Travelcard are available:

Anytime Day Travelcards - can be used for the whole day (using the date printed on the ticket), and for journeys starting before 04:30 the following day
Off-peak Day Travelcards are valid from 09:30 (Mondays to Fridays) or at anytime on Saturdays, Sundays or Bank holidays on the day of travel (using the date printed on the ticket), and for journeys starting before 04:30 the following day

[rogerw]

I may be wrong but I think that the validity is determined by the Council in whose area you board - hence 24 hour use in London. This would then mean that the last buses on those services could be used with a pass from Bath but not for journeys not starting within BANES

[froome]

I may be wrong but I think that the validity is determined by the Council in whose area you board - hence 24 hour use in London. This would then mean that the last buses on those services could be used with a pass from Bath but not for journeys not starting within BANES

I'm sure you are right. Fortunately, in this respect, most or if not all buses on services that serve Bath after 11pm are leaving Bath rather than heading towards it.

[Chris from Nailsea]

there was just one passenger on the bus who looked old enough to be on a senior card

Was that you 

I'll let you be the judge of whether or not I look old enough to be on a senior card 

I am not old enough under current rules to hold an ENCTS^▸ (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme) card - though I do have a senior railcard.  I suppose - if you think I look that old - there were two passengers on the bus who looked old enough to hold a card ... but I happened to know that one doesn't!

At the other end of the age scale: in my day job, I have to verify the age of my home delivery customers, to ensure that they are at least 18 - and the rule is, 'challenge 25, if you don't know they are at least 25'.

A week ago, I did indeed ask a Mrs W. in Backwell her age, and she said '32'.  When I then explained why I'd asked, she was delighted: "Oh, that's made my day!" she laughed.

 

[eightf48544]

Interesting London is 04:30.

I've posted before that I find in very contradictory that London has an integrated zonal fare structure for Train, Tube, DLR^▸ (Docklands Light Railway), Bus and Trams, plus discounts on Riverboats and the Skyline for travelcard holders. All under Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services).

Whereas it seem to be chaos in the rest of the country.

[LiskeardRich]

I've yet to try boarding a bus right on the dot of 9am to see how accurately they time the pass's acceptance.

In Kernowland Ticketer machines will not issue a concessionary ticket before 09h30 or after 23h00.  Driver has little choice!  If a pass is presented to the machine it won't accept it until the bewitching hours are passed.
On Park for Truro I believe, the machines at the car park offices will accept payment from 09h27 so technically you may board a bus before 09h30.  The problem would be the Ticketer on the bus will not accept driver input of said passes before 09h30 so you are travelling with 'illegal' passengers for 3 minutes.

I regularly use the Plymouth Citybus 0915 from liskeard to Plymouth. All the pass holders join this service buying a single to Tideford or Landrake, (forgot which, the bus is due to call at 0931) when we reach said village, there is a stampede of pass holders to the front of the bus to tap in.

[stuving]

We don't seem to have caught up with the 24/7 economy with day tickets, car parks etc expiring at midnight even if the last rain arrives later.

In Germany most Tageskarte expire at 03:00

It's 4.30am in London.

From https://tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/ways-to-pay/travelcards#on-this-page-1

Day Travelcards
Day Travelcards are issued as paper tickets and allow unlimited travel in a single day within the zones it is valid for.

Depending on the time of day of travel, different types of Day Travelcard are available:

Anytime Day Travelcards - can be used for the whole day (using the date printed on the ticket), and for journeys starting before 04:30 the following day
Off-peak Day Travelcards are valid from 09:30 (Mondays to Fridays) or at anytime on Saturdays, Sundays or Bank holidays on the day of travel (using the date printed on the ticket), and for journeys starting before 04:30 the following day

That's about Travelcards, not bus passes.

In London, a Freedom Pass can be used on "red roundel" buses at any time, as well as other modes with varying rules and times.

As for ENCTS^▸ (English National Concessionary Travel Scheme)  intervalidity, TfL^» (Transport for London - about)'s words say:

Using your Freedom Pass outside London

If you've got a rose symbol on your Freedom Pass, you can use it to travel free on local buses all over England. You can use it between 09:30 and 23:00 on weekdays and at any time on weekends and public holidays.

Concessionary bus passes from outside London

If you're from outside London and have a bus pass issued by another English council, you can use it, at any time, to travel free on buses displaying the red roundel.

You should show your pass to the driver; at the moment they can't be read by the yellow card readers. If the bus you're on doesn't display the red roundel, check with the driver if you can use it; most will let you travel free between 09:30 and 23:00 on weekdays, and at any time on weekends and public holidays.

The Freedom Pass site does include their use (implied above) on non-TfL buses within 09:30-23:00 in London.

[grahame]

I regularly use the Plymouth Citybus 0915 from liskeard to Plymouth. All the pass holders join this service buying a single to Tideford or Landrake, (forgot which, the bus is due to call at 0931) when we reach said village, there is a stampede of pass holders to the front of the bus to tap in.

How very civilised ... in these parts, there are places where they are required to get off the bus and rejoin - apparently split ticketing and getting off short isn't allowed on buses like it is (with most tickets) on trains.

Melksham has two buses an hour into Bath - run by different operators.   Interesting to observe at 09:30+delta this morning both a First and a Faresaver bus headed out for Bath,  both well less than half filled. What a strange world we live in!

[LiskeardRich]

I regularly use the Plymouth Citybus 0915 from liskeard to Plymouth. All the pass holders join this service buying a single to Tideford or Landrake, (forgot which, the bus is due to call at 0931) when we reach said village, there is a stampede of pass holders to the front of the bus to tap in.

How very civilised ... in these parts, there are places where they are required to get off the bus and rejoin - apparently split ticketing and getting off short isn't allowed on buses like it is (with most tickets) on trains.

Melksham has two buses an hour into Bath - run by different operators.   Interesting to observe at 09:30+delta this morning both a First and a Faresaver bus headed out for Bath,  both well less than half filled. What a strange world we live in!

The drivers encourage it. They call ‘all passholders’ or similar. Unfamiliar passengers are up/downsold the single to landrake instead of Plymouth on request.

The first post 0930 departure from liskeard to Plymouth is the once daily X11 (vehicle swap from liskeard outstation to main depot in Plymouth of a liskeard based bus that otherwise wouldn’t get to Plymouth in service) at 1000 which bypasses saltash. The standard 11 is at 1015.