Hydrogen Trains

[whole diary]

[broadgage]

In promoting this Grayling seems to be ignoring the high cost of producing hydrogen as well as the possible safety issues relating to a high pressure container of highly flammable gas.  Is he clutching at straws to justify his stance on electification?

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) yesterday

Trains powered by hydrogen could be a reality in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom) by the "early 2020s", according to Transport Secretary Chris Grayling.

They're seen as a cleaner - but pricier - alternative to diesel trains, as the exhaust emission is pure water.

The BBC's Roger Harrabin reports from Germany, where hydrogen trains are already running.
29 Oct 2018

Has technology move on in the last month to answer questions like:

1. How will the hydrogen be economically prepared?

2. More costly - in initial purchase or running, and who's going to pay?

3. Will timetables need to be altered to give refuelling time?

4. Will heavier trains mean they can't be used on some lighter branches?

5. Will the bigger on-train plant fit into the UK loading gauge?

6. Will in be safe?

Or are we relying  on research to solve some or all of those?

1) Only two methods are known for industrial scale hydrogen production. From natural gas, in which case use of compressed or liquefied natural gas would save the costs and loses involved in conversion to hydrogen.
Alternatively by electrolysis of water, this needs a great deal of electricity and the resultant hydrogen will at least twice of electricity.

2)Almost certainly a lot more expensive. Don't know whom will pay.

3)Possibly since I doubt that refueling with passengers on board, or refueling in a station will be allowed.

4)I doubt that it will be much heavier than diesel or battery power. Any increase would be by adding another vehicle, not by increased axle loads.

5)Yes, but it might mean an increase in train length for the hydrogen tanks and fuel cells.

6) It could probably be made safe, but each safety system adds weight, complexity, cost, and something else to go wrong. Each possibly minor accident would lead to extra safety measures.

[mjones]

My usual scepticism about hydrogen is slightly tempered by the fact that the Germans are trialling it. This gives me a bit more confidence that the practical difficulties can be overcome. As for supply, there is only one that makes any sense from a sustainability perspective, which is to produce it using electrolysis with surplus energy from wind and solar power, as this would help keep the Grid stable when renewables are peaking.

However, I fear that this is being seized upon by Grayling as yet another reason not to get in with electrification of our main lines. The Germans have already done theirs and are sensibly exploring new technology options that might at some point be useful in secondary routes and branches.

[Red Squirrel]

Exactly

[TonyK]

Exactly to which part? 

The Germans trialling it should reassure us that it is feasible from an engineering point of view and safe. They don't cut corners - the old Four Sprung Duck Technique, y'know. But I still don't know where all this surplus energy from wind and solar power is going to come from. You get the odd highly-publicised day when Scotland actually produces more than its electricity (nor energy) needs from renewables, but that's only because the government there lets power companies stick wind farms on any hillside they like, there is much less demand for electricity in Scotland than in England, and the infrastructure to transfer any putative surplus south is a bit shaky to say the least. A look at Gridwatch shows that right now, a fairly breezy day, wind is bringing just over 6% of our electricity to the mix, around two thirds of what is being generated by coal. Gas is making up over half, and is the most flexible. So gas gets turned down when the wind blows harder. There has never been a day when there has been a surplus of wind power.

Whether produced by superheated steam knoking carbon atoms off methane or by electrolysis, hydrogen is a way of storing energy, not creating it. So what you put in isn't what you get out. Providing energy on a large scale to power trains would effectively be to add to our electricity consumption just as running an IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) under the wires does. Mr Grayling could have expressed his green sympathies more clearly by finishing the electrification job, rather than cancelling crucial parts of it and buying lots of extra diesel engines for the brand new trains. So I say exactly, too.

[Lee]

...A look at Gridwatch shows that right now, a fairly breezy day, wind is bringing just over 6% of our electricity to the mix, around two thirds of what is being generated by coal. Gas is making up over half, and is the most flexible. So gas gets turned down when the wind blows harder. There has never been a day when there has been a surplus of wind power.

I don't know why, but I've got visions of Chris Packham and Michaela Strachan in their den going "oh look, there's a lesser-spotted species of freshwater fish in the salmon family Salmonidae..."

[TonyK]

I don't know why, but I've got visions of Chris Packham and Michaela Strachan in their den going "oh look, there's a lesser-spotted species of freshwater fish in the salmon family Salmonidae..."

She's popped out to the chemist's - we've run out. But you don't need to put in the hours required for birdspotting to get a snapshot of the nation's energy production. A simple click on a link to http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/ will suffice.

More later, but I have my OCD clinic at 3.49...

[Red Squirrel]

http://gridwatch.co.uk/ has, I think, the same source but to my mind presents it better. It is worth looking at the yearly graphs to get an overview of what comes from where.

[TonyK]

http://gridwatch.co.uk/ has, I think, the same source but to my mind presents it better. It is worth looking at the yearly graphs to get an overview of what comes from where.

I agree, having seen it - thanks!

Edit, having looked a bit further: Those periodic graphs do rather confirm my point in picture form. There is never a time where there isn't gas being used. It is interesting to see that we import from France and the Netherlands whilst simultaneously export to Ireland.

[stuving]

It is interesting to see that we import from France and the Netherlands whilst simultaneously export to Ireland.

How else do the Irish import from France, or indeed anywhere else? They are currently looking into a direct "Celtic Interconnector", for which some EU^» (European Union - about) money would be forthcoming.

[TonyK]

It is interesting to see that we import from France and the Netherlands whilst simultaneously export to Ireland.

How else do the Irish import from France, or indeed anywhere else? They are currently looking into a direct "Celtic Interconnector", for which some EU^» (European Union - about) money would be forthcoming.

I know, but the point is that we are importing electricity, generating it by coal, and exporting it to a country that was building wind farms specifically to export power to us. We might be buying it for tuppence and selling it for threepence or something, maybe offsetting something, or embezzling fivepence of a further sixpence, I dunno. International power broking was never my stronger suit. But I know that we could soon be importing electricity from Iceland in a few years' time, and also know, from my journey last month, that Iceland is a lot further to travel than Ireland. 1500 Km, to be not quite exact.We could flog a load of that the French, who have been kindly acting as our offshore nuclear facility for a while.

[Bmblbzzz]

Four Sprung Duck Technique,

[Red Squirrel]

We might be buying it for tuppence and selling it for threepence or something, maybe offsetting something, or embezzling fivepence of a further sixpence, I dunno. International power broking was never my stronger suit.

It's all explained here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0UV6ug96c0

[stuving]

There's a report on "Hydrogen in a low-carbon economy" published today by the  Committee on Climate Change (an official body advising government): "This report by the Committee on Climate Change (CCC) assesses the potential role of hydrogen in the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)’s low-carbon economy."

Its headline conclusions do not seem to me to be borne out by its more detailed analysis; some of the ifs and buts have been downplayed. But (and note that this is based on a quick read only) basically they see hydrogen as replacing gas and oil in heating (buildings and processes), so it is needed in huge quantities. And for that they favour low-carbon sources like gas reforming with carbon capture and storage - no everyone's cup of tea. They don't like the idea of using the gas distribution network for hydrogen, preferring heat pumps with low-carbon (perhaps hydrogen) backup for cold days.

On its use in transport they are only luke-warm, due to the usual issues of storage space and distribution, and also note the difficulty of providing the ultra-pure hydrogen that fuel cells need from a general network also supplying homes. For transport they are saying batteries are going to be the normal solution - as for other uses outside their core heating ones, it's niches only for hydrogen.

We therefore conclude that hydrogen is best used selectively, where it adds most value alongside widespread electrification, improvements to energy and resource efficiency, and use of CCS in industry and on bioenergy. This means using hydrogen where the alternative is continuing to burn unabated fossil fuels or where there are limits to feasible electrification.

[Lee]

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/teesside-could-home-first-fleet-16179606

Teesside could become home to the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)'s first fleet of hydrogen-powered passenger trains.

Arriva, one of Europe's leading providers of passenger transport, wants to build a major facility on Teesside - to fuel and maintain ten HMU (Hydrogen Multiple Unit) trains.

It is eyeing up potential sites at Thornaby and Lackenby, with the first ultra-green trains expected to run by June 2021.

An initial screening report has been lodged with Stockton Council, in a move that could help cement Teesside's plans to be at the "centre of the UK's growing hydrogen economy".

The Government wants to take all diesel-only trains off UK tracks by 2040.

Hydrogen as a fuel gives enough range and is potentially zero-carbon, if used alongside renewables.

And Teesside, which produces half the UK's entire hydrogen supply through its heavy industries, is seen as the natural place to start.

If the project is successful, it could be rolled out across the Northern and wider National Rail networks.