Hydrogen Trains

[whole diary]

[martyjon]

Was in a local Coffee shop this pm and happened to spy a couple of newspapers on another vacant table so I had a choice of either The Sub or The Times. Chose the Times and on the inside pages there was an article entitled, "Hydrogen powered trains could replace dirty diesels". I didn't read the article but did notice that reference was made to services from London to the West Country. Really, are these brand new shiny trains to be introduced on the route to the West Country 'dirty diesels'. Where on earth do these journalists dig up such dubious information from. Any members able to copy and past the article a link to this article although I think articles from The Times are behind a "pay-wall".

[tomL]

Behind a "Pay wall" but easy enough to find with your search engine of choice.

[stuving]

The story I was found on that topic was dated October 2017.

[Surrey 455]

I changed the search term a bit and came up with this published today from https://www.gasworld.com/uk-could-be-on-track-for-hydrogen-trains-/2014053.article

The UK^▸ (United Kingdom) government have stated that hydrogen (H2) technology should be considered on the Great Western network between London and the West Country.

The Department for Transport (DFT^▸ (Department for Transport)) indicated that H2 could be used as an alternative power supply on smaller branch lines that will never be electrified.

Alstom, French developer of the world’s first H2-powered train, has been in in discussions with British operators regarding the technology and have recently signed a deal to build and operate 14 zero-emission H2 trains in Lower Saxony, Germany.

The majority of trains in Britain run on diesel despite concerns over harmful emissions. Less than half of the network is electrified. Successive governments have committed to further electrification but it has proved prohibitively expensive.

Alstom’s trains, which emit only water, use H2 fuel cells to create electricity. Energy is stored in high-performance batteries which power the train.

The document, published by the Department for Transport, detailed, “Addressing rising passenger demand on non-electrified routes is therefore likely to require additional trains, either through new-build or by applying innovative ‘bi-mode’ technologies to existing trains. Hydrogen-powered trains will shortly start operation in regular service in Germany and could also potentially be a solution.”

Trials on the line are expected to take place from this spring and it is expected that passengers will be carried from December 2021. The Coradia iLint train can cover up to 620 miles at a time and reach a maximum speed of 87mph.

[Red Squirrel]

H2 could be used as an alternative power supply on smaller branch lines that will never be electrified...

...or, equally likely, trains could be towed by teams of trained squirrels.

[broadgage]

Very silly idea IMO^▸ (in my opinion), not actually impossible of course but pointless.
Anything that hydrogen can do should be doable cheaper and better by overhead electrification for fast, busy, long distance routes, or by batteries for lower speeds over shorter distances.

There are only two viable technologies for the bulk manufacture of hydrogen, reformation of natural gas which involves considerable losses and expense, and is pointless if compared to natural gas powered trains.
Or by electrolysis of water which requires a great deal of electricity, that could be more effectively applied via batteries or by OHLE.

A cynic might suspect that they* are trying divert attention away from the failed electrification projects my talk of futuristic nonsense.

*they= department for transport, or network rail, or GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), take your pick.

[trainer]

H2 could be used as an alternative power supply on smaller branch lines that will never be electrified...

...or, equally likely, trains could be towed by teams of trained squirrels.

I assume you aren't volunteering. 

[stuving]

I don't know exactly what the Times was referring to, unless it was picking up on that gasworld piece (perhaps plagiaristically). But I do know which document, published by the Department for Transport, detailed, “Addressing rising passenger demand on non-electrified routes is therefore likely to require additional trains, either through new-build or by applying innovative ‘bi-mode’ technologies to existing trains. Hydrogen-powered trains will shortly start operation in regular service in Germany and could also potentially be a solution., as quoted by gasworld today (16th).

It was the GW^▸ (Great Western) franchise consultation document! Yes, the one issued on 29th November 2017. It was in the lead-up to a general question (Q1) on franchise objectives that didn't refer to greenness. There was a related question, though it was much later on:

CONSULTATION QUESTION 12:
a) What do you think are the main priorities that we should seek to address in relation to rolling
stock?
b) Are there any routes which do not currently have First Class accommodation where you
think it should be provided?
c) Should the franchisee provide specific services and facilities for a) business travellers or
b) families travelling with children or c) other passengers?
d) If yes, please provide more information on what you think should be provided
e) What benefits or disadvantages do you think innovative technologies for rolling stock, e.g.
hydrogen or battery power, could bring?
f) Are there any routes which would be particularly suitable for these types of innovative
technology?

[paul7575]

Usual media misdirection or exaggeration. 
1. Possible use on short branch lines that are part of the GW^▸ (Great Western) network.
2. The said GW network runs from London to Penzance.
3. Hydrogen powered trains might run from London to Penzance...

Paul

[eightf48544]

There is an article in January's Modern Railways re hydrogen powered trains. Alstom are building a prototype ILNK MU^▸ (Multiple Unit) with fuel cells.

It mentions that it may not be possible to do within the British loading gauge as the fuel cells and hydrogen tanks need to be on the roof. Any bang goes up! So underfloor not suitable for  tanks and fuel cells.

Having seen not heard the fuel cell buses in London I wonder how they will tackle pedestrian foot crossings.

It also suggests that surplus electricity from wind farms at night could be used to produce the hydrogen.

[Red Squirrel]

It also suggests that surplus electricity from wind farms at night could be used to produce the hydrogen.

This is a reasonable point. It could. In some niche applications H₂ makes sense.

As an example, Orkney produces surplus wind-generated electricity which can' t readily be transmitted to the mainland. Storing this energy in the form of hydrogen may work here because Orkney relies on ferries to get people around and these lend themselves to accommodating the kind of plant required to release the energy using fuel cells.

But on branch lines, where charging infrastructure is likely to be close at hand? Batteries win hands down.

[broadgage]

There is no surplus wind power at night.
Last night, indicated wind power into the national grid reached a new record of over 10GW, this represented about one third of indicated demand.
A lot of natural gas  and some coal was still being burnt despite the new all time record for wind power, we were also importing electricity from France, so no question of a surplus.

And that remember was on a night of record wind power production, not a more typical night.

EDIT TO ADD^▸ (Automatic Dropping Device) the position may be different on offshore islands, with no grid connection to the mainland, or a connection of limited capacity, see previous post for details.
However nationally, there is no surplus of wind power, under present or reasonably foreseeable conditions.

[Adelante_CCT]

There is no surplus wind power at night.

Plenty on this forum however

[simonw]

I wonder how accurate the wind power figures are?

Most forms of power generation are not instantaneous, but planned. Whether it is purchase from France, Coal or Gas. Wind and Solar are instantaneous, with gearing allowing power generation of wind turbines, or idle rotation. Solar panels are also used on demand.

[broadgage]

The wind power figures are an underestimate.
All large wind farms are metered in real time and this data is continually reported to the national grid, and quoted on the gridwatch website.
Smaller wind turbines are not metered in real time, the power produced shows only as a reduction in demand.
So the reported figures are an under estimate.
Solar is estimated, by Sheffield University, this is done by metering a small number of installations and extrapolating.
All other large scale generation is metered in real time and reported to a good degree of accuracy.

http://www.gridwatch.templar.co.uk/