Those barriers - whose idea?

[whole diary]

[vacman]

Yes Vacman. But that does not mean that you should punish the 99% of people who are honest in order to catch the 1% of ones who are not. Because that's what the barriers do. And the very word - "barrier" - demonstrates what Andrew Haines admitted to in the Guardian a couple of weeks back - a "disconnect between the company and its customers".

Can you imagine Sainsbury's insisting that their shoppers go through barriers before entering? Of course not.

with barriers in place there is about 7% ticketless travel as the "opportunist" can't get away with it, take tha barriers away and it goes up to 15% overnight, anyway, 99% are not being "punished" as 90% have the brain power to use barriers properly, particularly the commuters whom travel every day who are the "bread and butter" and ultimately the ones who end up paying for the people who faredodge, if you think that only 1% of passengers are dishonest then you should ask FGW^▸ (First Great Western) for a weeks work experience and see it from the "other side"!!! as for sainsburys, the average person wouldn't walk into a store and walk out with their shopping without paying if noone challenged them, but plenty of people think they can take a train journey and walk off without paying..

[Tim]

9) the barriers are sophisticated enough to let you out of the station and then back in a few hours later. (so for example you can buy a Paper from Smiths at BTM^▸ (Bristol Temple Meads (strictly, it should be BRI)) between trains)

You are not actually alowed to do that with or without barriers. You have a ticket which wil specifically have the condition No Break in Journey, leaving the platforms consists of a break in journey, which is not allowed.

I didn't know that.  I am ashamed of myself.  Is leaving the platform but staying on the station really not allowed?

I'm pretty sure I have been told at a ticket offic ethat a break in jounrey is allowed (my specific query was regarding the return portion of a saver)

[swlines]

Return portion of a Saver is fine for breaking journies.

[Tim]

Yes Vacman. But that does not mean that you should punish the 99% of people who are honest in order to catch the 1% of ones who are not. Because that's what the barriers do. And the very word - "barrier" - demonstrates what Andrew Haines admitted to in the Guardian a couple of weeks back - a "disconnect between the company and its customers".

Can you imagine Sainsbury's insisting that their shoppers go through barriers before entering? Of course not.

with barriers in place there is about 7% ticketless travel as the "opportunist" can't get away with it, take tha barriers away and it goes up to 15% overnight, anyway, 99% are not being "punished" as 90% have the brain power to use barriers properly, particularly the commuters whom travel every day who are the "bread and butter" and ultimately the ones who end up paying for the people who faredodge, if you think that only 1% of passengers are dishonest then you should ask FGW^▸ (First Great Western) for a weeks work experience and see it from the "other side"!!! as for sainsburys, the average person wouldn't walk into a store and walk out with their shopping without paying if noone challenged them, but plenty of people think they can take a train journey and walk off without paying..

If 7% manage to travel without a ticket even when there are barriers (HOW?), then doesn't that demonsatrate that barriers are not the panacea for solving fare evasion.

[Jim]

Manual Barriers - It's always hard for them to check everything fully

Double Barriering (or whatever it might be when you walk through right behind someone)

[John R]

Yes, I'm not quite sure how barriers "punish" people, especially those with tickets. A bit of a pain sometimes, but I haven't seen a barrier issue a penalty fare notice yet.

[vacman]

Yes Vacman. But that does not mean that you should punish the 99% of people who are honest in order to catch the 1% of ones who are not. Because that's what the barriers do. And the very word - "barrier" - demonstrates what Andrew Haines admitted to in the Guardian a couple of weeks back - a "disconnect between the company and its customers".

Can you imagine Sainsbury's insisting that their shoppers go through barriers before entering? Of course not.

with barriers in place there is about 7% ticketless travel as the "opportunist" can't get away with it, take tha barriers away and it goes up to 15% overnight, anyway, 99% are not being "punished" as 90% have the brain power to use barriers properly, particularly the commuters whom travel every day who are the "bread and butter" and ultimately the ones who end up paying for the people who faredodge, if you think that only 1% of passengers are dishonest then you should ask FGW^▸ (First Great Western) for a weeks work experience and see it from the "other side"!!! as for sainsburys, the average person wouldn't walk into a store and walk out with their shopping without paying if noone challenged them, but plenty of people think they can take a train journey and walk off without paying..

If 7% manage to travel without a ticket even when there are barriers (HOW?), then doesn't that demonsatrate that barriers are not the panacea for solving fare evasion.

don't know if you've noticed, but not all stations are barriered!  that percentage is across FGW, I really dont think you can argue that barriers are ineffective in reducing fare evasion! on the first month of manual barriers at Plymouth before the gates went in, they were taking over ^1000 per day on passengers coming OFF trains, now days they rarely take more than ^100, thats a 90% reduction in that particular area!

[Ollie]

Either way can't win, for Paddington people want Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services), install barriers so that it will be a step in the right direction to finally being able, and they complain about the barriers.

Not referring to people in this topic btw, was actually a customer at Paddington.

[Mookiemoo]

Either way can't win, for Paddington people want Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services), install barriers so that it will be a step in the right direction to finally being able, and they complain about the barriers.

Not referring to people in this topic btw, was actually a customer at Paddington.

The reason I dont like barriers (ad penalty fares) is because the innocent punter often loses out

1. One occasions approaching slough on bike I was turning bike lights off as I approached station (very bright lights which were turned off by holding button down for 20 seconds) - not allowed onto platform with lights on - I was late because of a diversion (I a a law abiding cyclist) and having to faff with getting ticket out of bag and shoving through barrier I could not hold for 20 seconds straight - barrier staff would not allow me onto platfprm with lights despite me being in process of turning off 0 I missed train to reading which meant I missed the connection (post peak ) and got back to WOS^» (Worcester Shrub Hill - next trains) 2 hours later than I should

2. On another occasion I was going egham to putney - egham car park was jammed as half the spaces were coned off - by the time I parked the train was coming in - I made every effort to find the TM^‡(resolve) to buy a ticket but he was AWOL^▸ (Absent Without Leave) (but making announcements) - I got off at putney went to the excess fare point - anf got charged fair plus ^20 - I TRIED TO PAY THE TICKET BUT COULDNT AND DO I HAVE TO BE LATE FOR A MEETING OR PENALISED BECAUSE OF EVENTS OUTSIDE MY CONTROL

That is why I do not like barriers

Also - before barriers I could wander PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) and find my train.......... and get on and bag a seat before it is announced

Post barriers

If I go for the 1821 I have to chance it will go from plat 10 (normal but can change) and if it doesnt and I get a jobsworth who wont tell me the plat change before it is announced I have to join the scrum of sheep who wont think for themselves and I end up in s**t seat

If I go for the 1721 it goes from 2/3 I go through the barrier and wait for it to arrive - so I can again get a seat first - If it doesnt come in where diagrammed the I have to plead with barrier staff to let me back through and then get denied access when I do work out which plat its going from (you are penalising people who think ahead )

Can the barrier staff not show discretion - at the moment at Pad it works - you can go through the barriers but if you then go yup to the balcony you get unrestricted to all platforms - so I go through and stand on the bridge until I see the train with the hereford sticker snd then I go down

If everything is  barriered (tongue in cheek mode - I may have to queue with every one else and not  get my seat!)

IS this right just to stop a small percentage of fair dodgers

[gaf71]

Yes Vacman. But that does not mean that you should punish the 99% of people who are honest in order to catch the 1% of ones who are not. Because that's what the barriers do. And the very word - "barrier" - demonstrates what Andrew Haines admitted to in the Guardian a couple of weeks back - a "disconnect between the company and its customers".

Can you imagine Sainsbury's insisting that their shoppers go through barriers before entering? Of course not.

They do on the way out.....it's called a checkout, where you pay for your goods(or services in a train operators case). No difference at all from a revenue point of view.

[Ollie]

Sorry end up with a "s**t seat"? A seat is a seat, as long as you get one it's not worth complaining about.

In regard to your first point at Slough, staff would have been right to make sure the light was off before entering platform, it is a distraction to passing trains, and if it was thought to be a waving white light, they driver may see it as a sign to stop the train. And if it was bright like you say it could dazzle them.

Point 2, Egham is a south west trains station, but I'm aware they are strongly enforcing the National Rail Conditions of Carriage in that a ticket must be purchased before boarding a train, otherwise facing penalty fare, or full standard/first fare. Egham has a half hourly service to Putney, and has ticket office with opening hours of: Monday-Saturday 06:15-19:55 // Sunday 08:10-19:40 and machines. In terms of parking if half was coned off that leaves about 35 spaces, which isn't much, but at the same time you did get a space, and out of 35 possible spaces wouldn't have to look hard. Either way you would be best of querying it with SWT^▸ (South West Trains). Or as you were penalty fared you are entitled to appeal via an independent body and the address would have been on your penalty fare notice.

Down to the barriers, they are known to reduce ticketless travel. I agree with earlier points that they should remain in use late evening to assist with disruptive behaviour.
Barriers will be the way forward in terms of smart cards, so we do need them, especially within London so that Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) can finally be accepted.

[TerminalJunkie]

leaving the platforms consists of a break in journey

No, it doesn't. Condition 16 states: '...you will be treated as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company^s or Rail Service Company^s stations...', so you can leave a platform, as long as you stay in the station.

[swlines]

Mookiemoo, all stations on the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) network either have a Ticket Vending Machine or a PERTIS^▸ (Permit to travel) machine. If you cannot buy a ticket from one of these, then see the guard. They are always in the middle of the train on the class 458 operated trains, or the rear if it is only a 4 coach. Invariably, they are non-commercial and cannot issue tickets.

[Mookiemoo]

Mookiemoo, all stations on the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) network either have a Ticket Vending Machine or a PERTIS^▸ (Permit to travel) machine. If you cannot buy a ticket from one of these, then see the guard. They are always in the middle of the train on the class 458 operated trains, or the rear if it is only a 4 coach. Invariably, they are non-commercial and cannot issue tickets.

The point is on this particular day I showed up at Egham 20 minutes before my train - which was 40 minutes before the last train I could get and still make my meeting

It took me 37 minutes to get parked.

As I ran out of the car park the train was already going over the level crossing.

If I did not get that train, I was going to miss my meeting

I had left plenty of time on any normal day - how was I supposed to know half of the car park was coned off.

Or do you suggest that people miss trains whilst buying a ticket?   And dont say leave earlier - how early does one have to leave!

[swlines]

All I can say is - SWT^▸ (South West Trains) have a firm policy on penalty fares, if you are about to miss your train - it is far better to miss it than lose potentially ^20 + double your fare (they can do that!) ... or go to court!