Open Bus Data

[whole diary]

[grahame]

Sites such as Real Time Trains, Open Train Times and Recent Train Times ( http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk http://www.opentraintimes.com and http://www.recenttraintimes.co.uk ) provide us with excellent real time processed data from Network Rail's open data feeds.

The Bus Services Act - passed into law just before the dissolution of parliament in May - provided advanced partnerships, enhanced partnerships, franchising mechanisms for some ... and, less talked about, an open data requirement.   One of the big issues in promoting bus use and keeping passengers is the provision of information so that people can work out their end to end journey - timings and fares.  At present, I challenge anyone to give me (for example) a complete bus service timetable from Melksham to Devizes - with three different operators in different parts of the day, and a fourth on Sunday.

The rail sites I've listed above have come from technical entrepreneurs - small starters - making use of the rail data.  Posting here for anyone who may wish to do the same with buses - a DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) update on Open Bus Data.  I don't have an online link to the following - it came to me via email - anyone interested please let me know and I can forward a copy with embedded links and contacts

Open Data: Progress Update

All Aboard! Open Data Workshops

The Department for Transport (DfT), in collaboration with the ODI, will be holding three workshops during November and December. These workshops aim to give interested stakeholders an opportunity to share their views on the open data policy and also provide solutions as to how data provision can work in practice.

Who should attend a workshop?
* Local authorities
* Bus operators - including small and medium operators
* Organizations representing bus passengers and the bus industry
* Other stakeholders and anyone interested in bus open data

Why attend?
For industry and operators this means market growth, more jobs and technological innovation. For passengers this means much quicker, reliable and accurate journey planning improving decision making, social inclusion and overall enhancing the passenger experience.

Bus Open Data Workshop Dates:
Thursday 23rd November 2017, Urban Innovation Centre, 1 Sekforde Street London, EC1R 0BE
Wednesday 29th November 2017, Centrum Holt Street Birmingham B7 4BP
Wednesday 6th December 2017, ODI Leeds Duke Street Leeds

Programme Board
We have appointed a programme board to secure expertise and maintain momentum. Over the next coming weeks we will be consulting further both formally and informally with the full range of stakeholders.

Discovery Project
We are commissioning a discovery project to determine what format open data might take. The advert closed on Tuesday 10th October 2017 and we are currently assessing the full proposals with the aim of appointing a supplier by 17th November 2017.

[ChrisB]

At present, I challenge anyone to give me (for example) a complete bus service timetable from Melksham to Devizes - with three different operators in different parts of the day, and a fourth on Sunday.

If you put your start & end point into Google Maps, timetables are loaded & usually give you accurately the next bus/train (if available) according  to your time parameters. I use it all the time & haven't been let down yet. So where is Google Maps picking up the data currently?

[grahame]

If you put your start & end point into Google Maps, timetables are loaded & usually give you accurately the next bus/train (if available) according  to your time parameters. I use it all the time & haven't been let down yet. So where is Google Maps picking up the data currently?

The Travelline feed - http://www.traveline.info - linked to the NaPTAN databases of "public transport access nodes" (stations, bus stops, ferry landings and airports to you and me!).  Lacks 'real time', lacks fares information.   http://naptan.app.dft.gov.uk/Reports/frmStopsSummaryReport

[ChrisB]

I'm not sure 'real time' data is yet available for every bus, is it?

So shouldn't the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) start with the bus/coach operators first?

[grahame]

I'm not sure 'real time' data is yet available for every bus, is it?

So shouldn't the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) start with the bus/coach operators first?

Bus / Coach operators are included in the 'interested parties invited' list.   But surely it's sensible for technical people and knowledgable users also to make quite early inputs so that the final outcome is something that works for everyone / fulfills it's purpose of providing better information for users, rather than being bus industry driven where (on supported routes anyway) the final customer is the local authority, and the driving factors may be cheapness and profit in the current financial year rather than looking forward to the future.

[ChrisB]

My point being that many buses are untrackable right now & there's quite a cost to the operators in doing this. Until the vast majority are trackable, isn't this a bit premature?

There's little enough profit in a lot of operators businesses that many won't be able to afford to do it.

[stuving]

My point being that many buses are untrackable right now & there's quite a cost to the operators in doing this. Until the vast majority are trackable, isn't this a bit premature?

There's little enough profit in a lot of operators businesses that many won't be able to afford to do it.

I don't see the point in waiting for the vast majority of the data to be available before starting. Even 50%, which would probably be concentrated on a few major companies, would be useful. And it will take time - a delay of several years after the data are there would make no sense.

If (as seems likely) a lot of smaller/specialised operators will only join in later, if ever, you will need a way of presenting something meaningful for them. If there is some data, but not the full real-time feed, that should ideally be integrated so it makes sense.
 

[Tim]

My point being that many buses are untrackable right now & there's quite a cost to the operators in doing this. Until the vast majority are trackable, isn't this a bit premature?

There's little enough profit in a lot of operators businesses that many won't be able to afford to do it.

Another way of looking at it is that the cost of installing the tracking system on the buses is the expensive bit whereas releasing the data ought to be relatively cheap.  If a bus company has gone to the expense of making there buses trackable then why not maximise the return on that investment by releasing the data?

[ChrisB]

oh indeed. but as Stuving says, part-integration of data from those not fully trackable is going to push up the amount of work necessary....and there'll be persistant grumpiness from those using buses that aren't trackable

[GBM]

My point being that many buses are untrackable right now & there's quite a cost to the operators in doing this. Until the vast majority are trackable, isn't this a bit premature?

There's little enough profit in a lot of operators businesses that many won't be able to afford to do it.

Another way of looking at it is that the cost of installing the tracking system on the buses is the expensive bit whereas releasing the data ought to be relatively cheap.  If a bus company has gone to the expense of making there buses trackable then why not maximise the return on that investment by releasing the data?

Grovelling apologies for an often used quote, but "ooos gonna pay for it" 
OK, the operator has paid for tracking of most of it's fleet.  It would like a return on that cost by releasing it to an outside independent organisation for a cost.  If they then provide realtime tracking'ish they will want to pass that cost on and make a small profit.  So the passenger will pay for the privilege of tracking?
Tracking'ish as when vehicles develop a fault and are taken off the road/return to depot empty, someone tracking will be annoyed it was almost with them, then vanishes/goes on a return dead journey.
Fortunately, Kernow are totally paranoid about not having any dead runs wherever possible, hence why on occasions two vehicles are within a few minutes of each other; Tinners excepted, of course.  They seem to run together naturally 

[CyclingSid]

I have used the NaPTAN bus stops data for mapping, but like Google you end up with straight lines between stops, whereas what I need is the actual route.
There are some bits and pieces available is JourneyWeb the basis of anything useful https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/journeyweb?
There used to be a web site that gave "real time" bus information for Reading and parts of Oxfordshire http://www.livebus.org/reading/ which doesn't seem to load any details anymore. Reading Buses will "sell" you an app. But as most of the info on Reading bus stops should be filed under Fiction, I won't be rushing out for it.
As suggested it needs somebody to pull something together, it would need to be robust enough to allow for the ever changing route and timetable systems.

[ChrisB]

|And where can one obtain easily this ever-changing data that can change anytime, with only 6 weeks notice? There is no central location. As I said, overly premature, methinks

[JayMac]

And where can one obtain easily this ever-changing data that can change anytime, with only 6 weeks notice?

56 days. 8 weeks.

[grahame]

And where can one obtain easily this ever-changing data that can change anytime, with only 6 weeks notice?

56 days. 8 weeks.

Except (of course) in the event of an operator ceasing to trade.  I can't imagine that ever happening - especially in Somerset 

[Adelante_CCT]

Reading Buses will "sell" you an app. But as most of the info on Reading bus stops should be filed under Fiction, I won't be rushing out for it.

I find the bus tracking app excellent, exact location every 10 seconds, has come in very useful on numerous occasions. Even handier in the current cold conditions.