Do we owe GWR £14.40?

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

This weekend I was on a break with the family, staying in a holiday cottage on the Haldon Hills above Dawlish in Devon.

Yesterday (4/11/2017) afternoon we drove down to Dawlish Warren, parked up and walked the sea wall to Dawlish. After refreshments we decided to all (8 adults, 1 child, 1 under five) get the train back to Dawlish Warren, rather than just the two drivers collect the cars as originally planned.

The Ticket Office was closed at Dawlish and of course, with this being GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), GroupSave was not available from the TVM^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine). The guard was in the rear unit of the 2x Class143 train, and there was no ticket examiner in the front unit where we boarded.

Rules require you to buy tickets at the earliest opportunity. We're still waiting for that opportunity. We couldn't purchase at origin, there was no opportunity to pay on board, and no opportunity at destination.

I, being the fares nerd that I am, knew that our group required nine people to be covered by tickets, and the cost with GroupSave would be equivalent to six adult Off Peak Singles @£2.40. For a total of £14.40.

Some hypothecticals:

- Should we have bought those six Singles from the TVM? Would an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)) (if encountered) have challenged the fact that three people weren't covered by a ticket?
- Should we have bought everyone a ticket (9 Singles) and tried to claim 1/3 of the total back from GWR to account for not being able to get GroupSave? 
- Do we send GWR a cheque?
- Do we just say it's not our fault we couldn't buy the tickets we wanted and be pleased with the free ride? (This was our group consensus)

What would you do in this scenario?

[Adelante_CCT]

I'm guessing option 2 would have been the moral thing to do, however like you and your group, option 4 is the one I would have taken. I wouldn't necessarily be pleased, but just accept it as one of those things

[ChrisB]

4 is the answer, isn't it.

[grahame]

How about option 5?

As you had one member of the group who's something of an expert on trains and ticketing, the group could have joined the part of the train in which the train manager was travelling.  A quick "can you sell us a Groupsave" as you joined, "yes of course", and Robert's your parent's brother.

For a group of newcomers to GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), just getting in at any 'random' door's reasonable.   For a group that includes a fare, terms and conditions expert, joining the train at the opposite end to the conductor on a none-corridor pair of units could be questioned as to whether it was a deliberate act to maximise the chance of not having to pay.   I appreciate a decision in the heat of the moment (you probably didn't know what train type was going to turn up) but in hindsight it leaves muddy waters.

<pedant> Option 2 - surely you would not buy 9 tickets at £2.40 and claim a third back.   Wouldn't you buy 8 at £2.40, one for the child at £1.20 and then claim £1.20 less than a third back?</pedant>

[Adelante_CCT]

Shouldn't matter how knowledgeable you are regarding the operation of railways, everyone should be treated the same.

[TaplowGreen]

Caveat Vendor

Option 4 - you had every intention of buying the correct ticket but were not given the means to do so.

[GBM]

How about option 5?

As you had one member of the group who's something of an expert on trains and ticketing, the group could have joined the part of the train in which the train manager was travelling[/i]

For a group of newcomers to GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), just getting in at any 'random' door's reasonable.   

How would you know where the TM^‡(resolve) is?  Hardly advertised on train or by platform indications!
Having been on this forum for a few years now I'm aware of many more things than I ever was (!) but still wouldn't know where a TM is   

[chrisr_75]

How about option 5?

As you had one member of the group who's something of an expert on trains and ticketing, the group could have joined the part of the train in which the train manager was travelling[/i]

For a group of newcomers to GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), just getting in at any 'random' door's reasonable.   

How would you know where the TM^‡(resolve) is?  Hardly advertised on train or by platform indications!
Having been on this forum for a few years now I'm aware of many more things than I ever was (!) but still wouldn't know where a TM is   

Usually to be seen on the platform immediately after having released the doors. He or she is normally to be found, at least in GWR territory, in a green uniform. Fairly easily spotted when it's a 4 car train, less so if a (full length) HST^▸ (High Speed Train).

[JayMac]

How about option 5?

As you had one member of the group who's something of an expert on trains and ticketing, the group could have joined the part of the train in which the train manager was travelling.  A quick "can you sell us a Groupsave" as you joined, "yes of course", and Robert's your parent's brother.

For a group of newcomers to GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), just getting in at any 'random' door's reasonable.   For a group that includes a fare, terms and conditions expert, joining the train at the opposite end to the conductor on a none-corridor pair of units could be questioned as to whether it was a deliberate act to maximise the chance of not having to pay.   I appreciate a decision in the heat of the moment (you probably didn't know what train type was going to turn up) but in hindsight it leaves muddy waters.

I did know what type of unit was going to turn up. The down service, that was to return up from Paignton, passed us while we were walking the sea wall.

I explained to the family how the scenario would likely pan out after my cousin (regular GWR west user) said we could get a free ride. That there may not be an opportunity to purchase if we were to board the front unit. I was out-voted for suggesting we approach the Guard. However, there was every chance there would have been an Assistant Ticket Examiner in the front unit.

I say 'every chance'. This was a Saturday and we all know what GWR's staffing is like at the weekend!

Also, I noticed the Guard wasn't kitted up on arrival at Dawlish or Dawlish Warren.

I do like a bargain, and as you probably know, I do like to use all the legimate dodges and wheezes to pay as little as legally possible for my train journeys. I also like to ensure, as far as practicable, journeys are recorded by the operator for passenger number figures. I explained to the family the worse case scenario should we encounter an RPI^▸ (Revenue Protection Inspector (or Retail Price Index, depending on the context)). Group consensus was go for the potential 'free ride'.

<pedant> Option 2 - surely you would not buy 9 tickets at £2.40 and claim a third back.   Wouldn't you buy 8 at £2.40, one for the child at £1.20 and then claim £1.20 less than a third back?</pedant>

I would. You are allowed to by an adult ticket for a child to take advantage of GroupSave.

We are happy with the decision taken, and I'm still prepared to contact GWR, offering to pay. I wasn't wanting opprobrium for our choice. Just asking, "What would you do?"

All said, we had a lovely afternoon. Here's the bignosemac clan enjoying the walk:

[grahame]

<pedant> Option 2 - surely you would not buy 9 tickets at £2.40 and claim a third back.   Wouldn't you buy 8 at £2.40, one for the child at £1.20 and then claim £1.20 less than a third back?</pedant>

I would. You are allowed to by an adult ticket for a child to take advantage of GroupSave.

Yes - and we recommend groupsave for 2 adults + 1 child.   No point these days for larger groups in having a child on an adult ticket as you save 50% not 33%

[JayMac]

No point these days for larger groups in having a child on an adult ticket as you save 50% not 33%

You are correct. I was forgetting it's 1/3 off each adult fare (DWL-DWW £2.40) for 3-9 adults.There's no need to split 9 adults into three groups of three. Our fare would have been 8 adults @£1.60 and one child at £1.20. Rather than 9 adults @£1.60.

See. Even this self taught 'expert' doesn't know or remember it all. The fares system is too complex for one brain!

[froome]

How about option 5?

As you had one member of the group who's something of an expert on trains and ticketing, the group could have joined the part of the train in which the train manager was travelling[/i]

For a group of newcomers to GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), just getting in at any 'random' door's reasonable.   

How would you know where the TM^‡(resolve) is?  Hardly advertised on train or by platform indications!
Having been on this forum for a few years now I'm aware of many more things than I ever was (!) but still wouldn't know where a TM is   

Usually to be seen on the platform immediately after having released the doors. He or she is normally to be found, at least in GWR territory, in a green uniform. Fairly easily spotted when it's a 4 car train, less so if a (full length) HST^▸ (High Speed Train).

Not actually as simple as that. I've seen TMs get off and watch passengers boarding and then walk down to the other half of the train and board there. It happened recently when I got on specifically where I saw the TM was, as I needed to buy a ticket, and only then found the TM had got down to the far carriage (it was a two carriage train where the TM had been and one extra carriage linked to it). So I was left to wait at Temple Meads yet again having to queue on platform 3 to buy a ticket.

[chuffed]

What, no Finn in the photo ? Instead of Famous Five go on an adventure, this should have been BNM clan go on a freebie !

[LiskeardRich]

To throw a spin on it....
GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) policy makes no mention of the required ticket not being available (other Toc policies specifically say the ticket you require is unavailable you may buy on board or at next opportunity) so you could have been eligible for penalty fares all round as Dawlish is a Penalty fares station.

source GWR  revenue protection pdf:
https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdfs/book-and-plan/tickets-railcards-and-season-tickets/revenue-protection/gwr-revenue-protection-and-prosecutions-policy-a5-port-220617.pdf?la=en

[grahame]

Usually to be seen on the platform immediately after having released the doors. He or she is normally to be found, at least in GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) territory, in a green uniform. Fairly easily spotted when it's a 4 car train, less so if a (full length) HST^▸ (High Speed Train).

Not actually as simple as that. I've seen TMs^‡(resolve) get off and watch passengers boarding and then walk down to the other half of the train and board there. It happened recently when I got on specifically where I saw the TM was, as I needed to buy a ticket, and only then found the TM had got down to the far carriage (it was a two carriage train where the TM had been and one extra carriage linked to it). So I was left to wait at Temple Meads yet again having to queue on platform 3 to buy a ticket.

I suspect that most of the time getting in where you see the TM works - and if (s)he then moves, that's a fair case for suggesting you had no opportunity to pay.

GWR's goal should be to ensure that every passenger has an opportunity to pay before reaching their destination station - that the queue at Temple Meads should be a thing of the past, with arrival time + 3 minutes being the time that passengers will all be able to be out of the barriers and on their way.

Theory was that with 143s and 150/1s moving away, all Exeter based trains would be through corridor.  Alas, 143s with us a bit longer now, and units without corridor connections between them being brought it for Bristol based operation, I suspect we have more of a remapping of the problems than a solution.