New Train

[whole diary]

[patch38]

The automated announcements seem to be working now but the train manager appears to have to over-ride them to announce short platforms at both Bath Spa and Didcot Parkway.

Going back a few posts to this comment - why are the rear two carriages locked out at Didcot? I have been in the rear coach of a 10-car service from SWI^» (Swindon - next trains) - PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) on several occasions (before they turned the sets round so that first class is now at the rear) and it has always appeared to be well within the bounds of the useable platform.

[didcotdean]

It was announced as the rear three coaches when I was on one yesterday. Being in the front portion I couldn't see what was actually hanging off the end of Platform 1. The only platform which was down to be extended for these trains was Platform 3.

[patch38]

Just to clarify - I was referring to platform 2 above. I very rarely alight at Didcot Parkway so I'm not over-familiar with platform numbers! 1A03 - the 0600 BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) - PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) is what I was aboard on all occasions.

[didcotdean]

Yes I believe it is 2 carriages locked out on Platform 2 - but in the Paddington direction the rearmost door can't be opened at Reading either.
 

[Bmblbzzz]

The bike spaces, mentioned by Graham above, can also contribute to the delay.  With the storage spaces now being in the train itself a cyclist getting off usually has to wait until the other passengers have passed them before getting their machine out of the space.  By that time the gap in people disembarking has led to people starting to board, only to meet the cyclist who has now freed their bike.  It is even worse if one of those alighting has a cycle too!

Whenever I'm travelling with my bike on a train (which I don't do much), I always get my bike off the dangly-thing about five minutes before the train gets into the station. This avoids the boarding problem. There is still a problem though if you have luggage (panniers) which are too wide to go through the doorway attached to the bike, as most are. You get the bike off, run over to lean it against a pillar or whatever, then run back to fetch your panniers, which are still in the gangway, but of course now the other passengers are alighting. Usually, though, you can ask someone to hand them out to you.

[lbraine]

So I managed to end up on two of the new 800’s last week - both doing the 14:15 Cardiff - and I though I’d share some (uninformed) views of the experience.

The trains are smooth and quiet - the change over from electric to deisel at Maidenhead was imperceptible. I thought I deducted a slightly slower acceleration when not using the wires, but this might have been my brain playing tricks.

The standard class decor is functional, with good alignment with seat to windows and more tables per coach being noticeable. I would say that the ‘functional’ statement is subjective as the comfort level is not as good as a MK3, but better than most suburban units. Be under no illusion - this is a train focused on commuter needs, not an intercity journey at comfort.

On that point - the ride is OK - but again, not as smooth as a MK3 across the points. There is a distinct and noticeable translation of the track condition to the seat. Not unpleasant, just noticeable.

On the first trip old fashioned cards for reservations were in use. On the second trip the above seat signage was operating. On both trips coach A was in the middle of the train ! So, the coaches, from the barrier end went E - D - C - B - A - J - I - H - G - F (or something like that - but A was definitely in the middle)

Very odd and confusing to the numerous passengers who were wandering the corridors trying to find their seats, unsure of which direction to head in. And many were in the wrong train set, not realisizing there was a second set after the end of the first.

On the second trip the train manager made two announcements 10 and 5 mins before departure to try and encourage people in the crammed London set to move to the near empty Country set.

GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) has a massive education issue, to inform the public BEFORE boarding how to find their seats.

Doorways are narrow - it will be interesting to see how dwell times are impacted, especially with the bike/luggage rack space adjacent to the door.

All in all - not bad, but nothing exceptional. A good functional commuter train (maybe the GWR West Country units will offer more comfort for the longer journey times envolved)

[4064ReadingAbbey]

So I managed to end up on two of the new 800’s last week - both doing the 14:15 Cardiff - and I though I’d share some (uninformed) views of the experience.

The trains are smooth and quiet - the change over from electric to deisel at Maidenhead was imperceptible. I thought I deducted a slightly slower acceleration when not using the wires, but this might have been my brain playing tricks.

The standard class decor is functional, with good alignment with seat to windows and more tables per coach being noticeable. I would say that the ‘functional’ statement is subjective as the comfort level is not as good as a MK3, but better than most suburban units. Be under no illusion - this is a train focused on commuter needs, not an intercity journey at comfort.

On that point - the ride is OK - but again, not as smooth as a MK3 across the points. There is a distinct and noticeable translation of the track condition to the seat. Not unpleasant, just noticeable.

On the first trip old fashioned cards for reservations were in use. On the second trip the above seat signage was operating. On both trips coach A was in the middle of the train ! So, the coaches, from the barrier end went E - D - C - B - A - J - I - H - G - F (or something like that - but A was definitely in the middle)

Very odd and confusing to the numerous passengers who were wandering the corridors trying to find their seats, unsure of which direction to head in. And many were in the wrong train set, not realisizing there was a second set after the end of the first.

On the second trip the train manager made two announcements 10 and 5 mins before departure to try and encourage people in the crammed London set to move to the near empty Country set.

GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) has a massive education issue, to inform the public BEFORE boarding how to find their seats.

Doorways are narrow - it will be interesting to see how dwell times are impacted, especially with the bike/luggage rack space adjacent to the door.

All in all - not bad, but nothing exceptional. A good functional commuter train (maybe the GWR West Country units will offer more comfort for the longer journey times envolved)

Except I didn't find them smooth or quiet. In the leading coach out of Paddington (which is not powered) there is a noticeable continuous drone. In a powered coach, when the engines are running there is a noticeable vibration of the table - just rest your fingers on it. The ride is nothing to write home about, laterally it is no better than a Mark 3 and there is also a vertical 'nervousness' - small amplitude high(ish) frequency movements.

But you can see out of the windows - from most seats anyway...

[ChrisB]

On that point - the ride is OK - but again, not as smooth as a MK3 across the points. There is a distinct and noticeable translation of the track condition to the seat. Not unpleasant, just noticeable.

Hmm - agree but across the points etc I found a district rattle of the bogies could be heard & felt. I guess that might settle down with wear & tear.

[old original]

All in all - not bad, but nothing exceptional. A good functional commuter train (maybe the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) West Country units will offer more comfort for the longer journey times envolved)

I don't think so. Had a look through the window of the 802 when it stopped in Truro and it looked identical to the one I caught from Paddington a couple of weeks ago

[PhilWakely]

All in all - not bad, but nothing exceptional. A good functional commuter train (maybe the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) West Country units will offer more comfort for the longer journey times envolved)

I don't think so. Had a look through the window of the 802 when it stopped in Truro and it looked identical to the one I caught from Paddington a couple of weeks ago

I concur with old original's observations as I did the same at Totnes 

[Tim]

I tend to agree that the ride quality is no better and perhaps not quite as good as a Mk III.  However some caution is needed in making the comparison because it seems to me that the track quality is on a bit of a down swing at the moment.  Maybe because NR^» (Network Rail - home page) is concentrating on spending its money and possession time on electrification, but track maintenance seems to have suffered. 

[TonyK]

I don't think so. Had a look through the window of the 802 when it stopped in Truro and it looked identical to the one I caught from Paddington a couple of weeks ago

So far as I know, the actual vehicles used for Class 800 and Class 802 are identical. The difference is in the engine power, which I believe is a software variation rather than the actual physical bits, and a bigger fuel tank on the 802 to cope with the longer off-wires journeys.

[Tim]

I don't think so. Had a look through the window of the 802 when it stopped in Truro and it looked identical to the one I caught from Paddington a couple of weeks ago

So far as I know, the actual vehicles used for Class 800 and Class 802 are identical. The difference is in the engine power, which I believe is a software variation rather than the actual physical bits, and a bigger fuel tank on the 802 to cope with the longer off-wires journeys.

I think that is right.  The software changes mean that the engine and traction components are subjected to more demanding loads and I assume that this is reflected in a different maintenance regime and a presumably higher charge by Hitachii for use of the trains.  AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) the class 800 which were originally intended to be purely electrical had their software changed to allow better performance off the wires (referred to as "unmuzzling") in addition to having extra engines added, but they have not been "unmuzzled" all the way to the performance of class 802s. 

[1st fan]

I don't think so. Had a look through the window of the 802 when it stopped in Truro and it looked identical to the one I caught from Paddington a couple of weeks ago

So far as I know, the actual vehicles used for Class 800 and Class 802 are identical. The difference is in the engine power, which I believe is a software variation rather than the actual physical bits, and a bigger fuel tank on the 802 to cope with the longer off-wires journeys.

That won't please the Yorkshire man I met after his first trip on the Class 800. He told me "Well they're not Voyagers" which was apparently a good thing. Also said the seats are "Rock-Ard" and he didn't like them so I doubt he'd manage the trip to Penzance comfortably.

[stuving]

I don't think so. Had a look through the window of the 802 when it stopped in Truro and it looked identical to the one I caught from Paddington a couple of weeks ago

So far as I know, the actual vehicles used for Class 800 and Class 802 are identical. The difference is in the engine power, which I believe is a software variation rather than the actual physical bits, and a bigger fuel tank on the 802 to cope with the longer off-wires journeys.

I think that is right.  The software changes mean that the engine and traction components are subjected to more demanding loads and I assume that this is reflected in a different maintenance regime and a presumably higher charge by Hitachii for use of the trains.  AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) the class 800 which were originally intended to be purely electrical had their software changed to allow better performance off the wires (referred to as "unmuzzling") in addition to having extra engines added, but they have not been "unmuzzled" all the way to the performance of class 802s. 

Is there any evidence that there is still some power difference between 802s as ordered and 800s after unmuzzling? I can't think why there should be - other than for the 801s now coming with engines (800/3) and the 9-car 802s (802/1) where there's a small difference due to having five engines per nine cars rather than three per five.

There was an long article in Rail Engineer in July about the Pistioa plant and the trains being made for GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway). It includes:

The Class 802

As far as traction equipment is concerned, the class 802 has four types of coaches as shown in the table.

DPT — Driving pantograph trailer cab — Driving cab, trailer bogies, pantograph, transformer and auxiliary power supply
M — Motor coach — Motor bogies with 226kW traction motors (904kW per car), diesel generator with fuel tank and traction converter
T — Trailer coach — Trailer bogies and auxiliary power supply
T — Trailer pantograph coach — Trailer bogies, pantograph, transformer and auxiliary power supply

The arrangement of a nine-car class 802 is DPT-M-M-TP-M-T-M-M-DPT whilst that of the five-car unit is DPT-M-M-M-DPT.

Although the class 802 is almost identical to the class 800, there are some differences to take account of it being diesel-powered for longer distances and having to run over the steeply graded lines in Devon and Cornwall. Hence its 1,550-litre fuel tank is larger, as is the toilet tank. The class 802 also has a larger brake resistor for increased dynamic braking capacity and, in diesel mode, is more powerful. Rolls-Royce Power Systems is supplying its MTU^▸ (Motor Traction Unit) 12V 1600 R80L diesel power packs, which produce 700kW at 1900 rpm. The class 800 has an identical power pack, although software limits its output to 560 kW.



GWR commercial development director, Matthew Golton, confirmed that the company intended to continue providing its Pullman restaurant service and was not looking to make significant changes to its fare structure because of the introduction of these new trains.
...
Berry advised that the first Pistoia-built class 802 will arrive in Britain in December and that all 33 Italian-built class 802 units will be delivered by December 2018.

Those delivery dates are a lot earlier than we were given previously.

Wikipedia is convinced that the 9-car 800/3s will have the same 1.55 m³ fuel tanks as the 802s, but it is unclear whether any of the 800/0s will get/have got those or the 1.35 m³ ones. Note that's not exactly a huge difference.