IETs into passenger service from 16 Oct 2017 and subsequent performance issues

[whole diary]

[IndustryInsider]

There needs to be some 5-car trains in the fleet.  Otherwise you wouldn’t be getting your hourly trains to Gloucester, and double the number of trains to Bristol.  Many other services such as off-peak North Cotswold Line trains and the Bedwyn services would need to be something else.  Back to Turbos?  Thankfully not!

Whether the balance is right between 5 and 9 cars is open to debate.  I would like to have seen a few more 9-cars, say 40-45 rather than the 35 there are.

[Timmer]

I have no issues with five car trains for new services such as you have mentioned above II, just replacing existing IC^▸ (Inter City) services with 10 car trains that too often are ending up as five car trains for one reason or another leading to severe overcrowding.

By some accounts splitting services at Plymouth to go to Penzance that five car trains are not enough. Perhaps with the increase in local services between Plymouth and Penzance that this may help. However, most travelling to/from London are still going to want to travel on a through service rather than change at Plymouth.

I hope we will in time see less and less of this occurring but have yet to be convinced. It’s brand damaging for travelling by train when a train turns up half length and you either can’t get on or in the case of some travelling to/from the SW having to stand for 4 hours plus with no hope of either a visit to the toilet or the appearance of a trolley because the train is so full.

I agree that it would have been better to have had more 9 car sets built but as always Dft know best.

[REVUpminster]

I can see some of the 2x5 cars being replaced by 9 cars be taking out the two middle driving units and replacing it with a carriage with a buffet while Hitachi are still producing them for the Azumas^▸ (Brand name for Class 80x trains on LNER)

[Clan Line]

What do I find to be the most telling aspect of these 5 car IETs^▸ (Intercity Express Train) ?   ...................... I was a regular traveller between Chippenham & Paddington when the Class 180s were being introduced into service - all the problems the 5 car IETs are exhibiting were clearly signposted by the 180s. Except perhaps that the 180s did seem to be slightly more mechanically reliable than the IETs !
Definition of Lunacy:- doing exactly the same thing and expecting a different outcome ...

[IndustryInsider]

180s more reliable than IETs^▸ (Intercity Express Train)?!?  Certainly not from my recollection and I see one caught fire just the other day.   

[JayMac]

FGW^▸ (First Great Western), as was, couldn't wait to be rid of the Class 180s. Demoted from GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) services to the Cotswolds as soon as FGW picked up HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) from elsewhere.

They've been nothing but trouble for Hull Trains who have had to resort to hiring in HSTs to run their advertised services. Things got so bad at one point last October that Hull Trains had to cancel all their advertised services, as all their Class 180s were poorly. Despite the Class 180s being less than 20 years old Hull Trains are getting rid and replacing them with Class 802s. That suggests that they are happy with the Hitachi product.

Things are a little better over at Grand Central. They're only keeping their show on the road with sufficient spare capacity. They have 10 Class 180s. Their timetable requires 7 sets daily. Despite having 3 spares they've still had availability issues.

It should be remembered that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) were the launch customer for Hitachi's Class 80x. Being perfect out of the box was a big ask. It's GWR and its passengers who've been the guinea pigs. As they were for the HSTs and Class 180s. HSTs went on to be ordered for other lines. Class 80x will be running with four different train operators before long. I predict others will be ordering them too. That shows, I believe, that the industry has faith in the Hitachi product. It's telling that no other operator ordered Class 180s. They looked at the issues FGW had (far worse than any of the IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) teething problems) with Adelantes and steered well clear.

I can't agree that Class 180s are better or more reliable than Class 80x

[broadgage]

I have previously compared IETs^▸ (Intercity Express Train) to both Voyagers, and to Adelantes neither of which have been a great success.
Advocates of IETs, whilst perhaps admitting that voyagers and similar units have been a failure, stated that it would be different this time !

It seems safe to say that IETs are voyager like in length, facilities and general quality. Though Voyagers do at least have a buffet shop.

Have lessons been learnt ? not likely, lets order a load more 5 car DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) for inter-city routes.

Catering, we have by degrees moved  from
"of course the new units will have a buffet"  (even after published drawing showed no buffet)
"they could have a buffet"
"no one wants a buffet"
"a much improved trolley service will be available"
"the improved trolley service might start when all the fleet is in service"
"hot food is coming when more of the new DMUs are in service"
"no hot food, a trial showed lack of demand"

On train length, we have moved by degrees from
"the new fleet is much larger in number of vehicles, no question of short formations"
"all trains that need to be, will be full length"
"some short formations are unavoidable due to (presumably unforeseen) staff training"
"it will get better when more new units are delivered"
"it will be better when the new timetable starts"
"short formations are actually a great step forward because otherwise we would have had no train"
"better get used to it"

This is called progress.

[IndustryInsider]

I can't agree that Class 180s are better or more reliable than Class 80x

Indeed.  You don’t achieve 95% punctuality and 99.8% reliability with a fleet that’s inherently unreliable.

[GBM]

Whilst waiting for my train from Taunton to Penzance yesterday afternoon, heard the interesting platform announcement just before the train rolled in.
"The next train is the xxx Paddington to Penzance, calling at ... This train will divide at Plymouth.  Travel in the rear portion for Tiverton P (etc, etc with stations named to Plymouth).  Passengers for stations (all named Cornish ones) travel in the front section.  This train has 9 coaches."
It didn't divide, but interestingly had an eight minute scheduled wait at Plymouth.

Didn't see any train manager on the return trip but saw the trolley three times.
On the up trip saw the train manager several times and the trolley twice.  First trolley had no warm food or sandwiches on offer, as nothing was left for him to serve. Following a changeover at Newton Abbot, warm food and sandwiches were available.
   

[broadgage]

There needs to be some 5-car trains in the fleet.  Otherwise you wouldn’t be getting your hourly trains to Gloucester, and double the number of trains to Bristol.  Many other services such as off-peak North Cotswold Line trains and the Bedwyn services would need to be something else.  Back to Turbos?  Thankfully not!

Whether the balance is right between 5 and 9 cars is open to debate.  I would like to have seen a few more 9-cars, say 40-45 rather than the 35 there are.

I agree that a limited number of half trains are appropriate for secondary routes and for services not previously operated by HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train).
However I feel that most services previously worked by HSTs should be full length IETs^▸ (Intercity Express Train).
A 5 car IET IS an improvement over a Turbo.
A 5 car IET is NOT an improvement on an HST. A 5+5 IET has more seats than an HST but is a downgrade in all other respects.

At the beginning of this whole sorry saga, it was implied or suggested that Cornish services would be worked by 9 car IETs, yet now we are told that this wont happen because the depot at Penzance cant take a 9 car IET.
How is that for progress !

What about the suggestion that the follow on order for 9 car sets "could" be to a better specification and "might" include a buffet for use on Cornish services. I do not recall anyone then saying that the depot could not accept full length trains.
So either there was deliberate deception in implying that full length trains would be used to Cornwall, or no one had bothered to measure the depot.
Which was it ?

[grahame]

A 5+5 IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) has more seats than an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) but is a downgrade in all other respects.

Oh come, come ...
* an IET runs a lot of the way on electricity which, more and more, is generated sustainably
* IET running schedules, when the timetable is revamped, will be noticeably faster
* Station dwell times, especially at stations unmanned when a train calls, are significantly reduced
* There is no danger to passenger from sticking their head out of windows
* There is no Victorian dumping of human waste on the track
... I would have thought that the first of these, especially, would be really important to you!

Mind - replacing class 43 with class 93 (the "Unicorn" class - fast bimode power cars) and modernising the HST carriages like Cross Country are doing on their sets might have dealt with HST issues highlighted above.

[broadgage]

A 5+5 IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) has more seats than an HST^▸ (High Speed Train) but is a downgrade in all other respects.

Oh come, come ...
* an IET runs a lot of the way on electricity which, more and more, is generated sustainably
* IET running schedules, when the timetable is revamped, will be noticeably faster
* Station dwell times, especially at stations unmanned when a train calls, are significantly reduced
* There is no danger to passenger from sticking their head out of windows
* There is no Victorian dumping of human waste on the track
... I would have thought that the first of these, especially, would be really important to you!

Mind - replacing class 43 with class 93 (the "Unicorn" class - fast bimode power cars) and modernising the HST carriages like Cross Country are doing on their sets might have dealt with HST issues highlighted above.

I was referring to passenger comfort and facilities.
The use of electricity for part of the mileage is indeed a step forward as regards climate change, but not of direct benefit to those on board. The underfloor engines are used for most of the journey to Cornwall and are a disbenefit if compared to a proper train with a locomotive or power car at the end.
IET times should indeed show an improvement, but this has not yet been realised.
Retention toilets are better for track workers, and for passengers waiting at platforms. But for those on board are arguably a backward step as more to go wrong and therefore often out of use.

I am not opposed to the PRINCIPLE of bi mode operation, and have only relatively minor objections to the mechanical design and specification of the IETs.
We cant live in the past forever, and I would be more accepting of the new units if they had a proper inter-city internal fit out.

Just add a buffet, padded seats, more tables, reliable toilets, a working reservation system, and make the majority of the fleet full length and gangwayed throughout, and I (and I suspect many others) would regard them as acceptable.
I would forget, or at least forgive, the underfloor engines provided that the train was otherwise of proper inter-city specification.

[Clan Line]

180s more reliable than IETs^▸ (Intercity Express Train)?!?  Certainly not from my recollection and I see one caught fire just the other day.   

Well - in my recollection there didn't seem to be that many 10 car 180s appearing as a 5 car 180 ?  That seems to be well up the list of complaints about the IETs.  Perhaps the 180s  were so unreliable that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) had a good stock of spares ..   

[BBM]

180s more reliable than IETs^▸ (Intercity Express Train)?!?  Certainly not from my recollection and I see one caught fire just the other day.   

Well - in my recollection there didn't seem to be that many 10 car 180s appearing as a 5 car 180 ?  That seems to be well up the list of complaints about the IETs.  Perhaps the 180s  were so unreliable that GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) had a good stock of spares ..   

Sometime around 2005-2006 my regular train from TWY^▸ (Twyford station) to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) was scheduled to be a 10-car 180 (I think it started from OXF^» (Oxford - next trains)) and most of the time it was that length. However about once or twice a month there'd be an announcement that it was only 5 cars and consequently it wouldn't be calling at TWY as it was too full. When that happened, sometimes the following HST^▸ (High Speed Train) would make an additional stop but more often we'd have to take the next stopper to PAD.

[Sixty3Closure]

...A 5 car IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) IS an improvement over a Turbo...

I think passengers on the 06.53/07.01 Twyford/Maidenhead to Paddington would disagree on that one.