Shortage of rolling stock since September 2017 - ongoing problems, and subsequent discussion

[whole diary]

[a-driver]

I feel that the situation is now bad enough that drastic action is needed, even if it means taking "the railway" out of its comfort zone.

GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), HMRI^▸ (Her Majesty's Railway Inspectorate), and the government need to get to get together and hire extra stock, and to permit the use of otherwise non approved rolling stock.

There is no other rolling stock to hire.  GWR had to release 153’s recently to East Midlands Trains. This is to allow East Midlands Trains to overhaul their units.  Basically no operator has spare capacity.  Once EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) have overhauled their units don’t be surprised to see them transferred elsewhere.

Many heritage railways DO have extra stock, though not passed for mainline use. An exemption or derogation needs to be granted to permit such stock to be used on the Cornish branches, and of course a "one of" permission to use the main line to get to the branch.
A VERY BASIC "is it fit to run" examination would be needed, but this should be confined to the basics such as "does it look structurally sound" and "do the brakes work" NOT nit picking over all the correct signs and notices.
It may need to be accepted that stock acceptable for use between Minehead and Bishops Lydeard, is now acceptable for branch line use.
Steam haulage sounds attractive and might be used exceptionally, but heritage diesel  locomotives, or multiple units would be more realistic.

Or would it be simpler to re-brand one or two branches as light railways ? thereby permitting heritage stock.

There are many days on which railtours or charters do not run, what happens to the coaches ? can they not be hired and used on the main line, hauled by a heritage diesel, or a modern freight engine.

You’d never get heritage stock running regular services, even on branch lines.  A lot of heritage stock will need central door locking, TPWS^▸ (Train Protection and Warning System), OTDR^▸ (On Train Data Recorder), GSMR etc etc fitted, probably a lot more than that even as a basic. Then there’s staff training, drivers, guards, maintenance staff.  Plans to rescue any heritage train in the event of a failure.
Then there is the issue of the train operator obtaining a safety case.  What needs to happen is the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) needs to buy new stock and to stop expecting train operators to run a railway with no spare stock.  You can’t rely on heritage stock to prop up a railway service.
Look at Virgin West Coast following the Grayrigg derailment.  One Pendolino train written off and they have to bring one of their old MkIII sets out of retirement.

And as for the Thames turbos that lack SDO^▸ (Selective Door Opening), I would run them thus even to short platforms, with stewards to prevent accidents.

There isn’t an issue with the Turbo’s and short platforms on the mainline in Cornwall.  The shortest platform is Menheniot which can take a 3-car, possible 4 at a squeeze.

There was also the apparently unforeseen need to train staff on the new (IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train)) train

No there wasn’t. If electrification wasn’t delayed the new IET trains would have been delivered on time.  Once delivered GWR would have been able to train a significant proportion of their drivers because they would still have had enough HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) to allow them to keep the IET’s out for training purposes.
As it happened. The IETs were delivered late and had to be used in passenger service because there was no other rolling stock.  Services have been shortened to 5-cars so that the other 5 can be used for training. 

[lordgoata]

So after all that fanfare about extra seats and super new trains, we are going to end up with Crossrail cattle trucks from Reading, and 4-car refurbished 1987 era ThamesLink cast-offs between Oxford and Reading??! Why on earth are they extending the platforms between Reading and Didcot if the short-lived 8 car 387s are gonna be replaced with 4 car units again?

And dont try and tell me the refurbished trains will be like new, the retrofitted aircon, and powersockets in the refurbished turbos are nothing to write home about!

Or have I completely miss read the situation!? Me confused. Again. 

[a-driver]

Class 769’s are for the LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) branches and North Downs services, and possibly the Didcot to Oxford shuttles. Had they electrified the routes as planned these probably won’t have been needed.

[broadgage]

I was proposing a temporary derogation or exemption so as to permit of heritage stock being used on a branch line  WITHOUT being fitted with all the latest safety features.
We used to run a railway without GSMR, TPWS^▸ (Train Protection and Warning System), and all the other new features, and IMHO^▸ (in my humble opinion) we still could run a few low risk outlying parts without these features.
That is what I meant by taking "the railway" out of its comfort zone.

Something needs to be done. The present situation is beyond parody and is also I fear damaging long term economic growth in the West country.

[lordgoata]

Class 769’s are for the LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) branches and North Downs services, and possibly the Didcot to Oxford shuttles. Had they electrified the routes as planned these probably won’t have been needed.

When I just looked them up to see what they were, everything said initially LTV coverage to replace DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit), then ending up primarily on Oxford, Reading and Gatwick services - so I took it to mean Oxford to Reading (replacing at least in part the current Oxford to Reading DMU shuttles), and Reading to Gatwick. As I said, confused!

[a-driver]

The branch lines probably carry more risk than the mainline. Reception is poor for anything other than GSMR radio and there’s significant risk with a number of open level crossings and farm crossings.
I doubt anyone would authorise for fear of the repercussions if there was an incident. Any heritage train you use would need to run on a mainline to access maintenance facilities

[SandTEngineer]

...mmm.  Are you not aware that West Coast Railways ran the Kendal-Windemere branch for four weeks recently using heritage rolling stock top and tailed by heritage diesels?  It can be done if you try hard enough.

[broadgage]

The branch lines probably carry more risk than the mainline. Reception is poor for anything other than GSMR radio and there’s significant risk with a number of open level crossings and farm crossings.
I doubt anyone would authorise for fear of the repercussions if there was an incident. Any heritage train you use would need to run on a mainline to access maintenance facilities

Emergency communication is easy in the absence of GSMR, simply use an Inmarsat phone.
Open level crossings and farm crossings certainly represent a risk, but is this risk increased by say a preserved class 47 and some mark2 coaches instead of a modernish DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) ?

[paul7575]

...Why on earth are they extending the platforms between Reading and Didcot if the short-lived 8 car 387s are gonna be replaced with 4 car units again?

The 4 car 387s run in pairs to provide 8 car trains, so surely 769s can as well?  Hence continuing with platform lengthening probably still makes sense.

[phile]

Class 769’s are for the LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) branches and North Downs services, and possibly the Didcot to Oxford shuttles. Had they electrified the routes as planned these probably won’t have been needed.

The 769 programme is months and months behind.  No confirmation that even one has been fully modified and tested yet.    ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) are in line for the first 5 now and then Northern as the latest story goes. 

[a-driver]

...mmm.  Are you not aware that West Coast Railways ran the Kendal-Windemere branch for four weeks recently using heritage rolling stock top and tailed by heritage diesels?  It can be done if you try hard enough.

Yes, using mainline registered crew and rolling stock from their nearby base at Carnforth.  It also cost £6000 a day to operate, I can’t see the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) shelling out that level of cash!!

[a-driver]

The branch lines probably carry more risk than the mainline. Reception is poor for anything other than GSMR radio and there’s significant risk with a number of open level crossings and farm crossings.
I doubt anyone would authorise for fear of the repercussions if there was an incident. Any heritage train you use would need to run on a mainline to access maintenance facilities

Emergency communication is easy in the absence of GSMR, simply use an Inmarsat phone.
Open level crossings and farm crossings certainly represent a risk, but is this risk increased by say a preserved class 47 and some mark2 coaches instead of a modernish DMU^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) ?

Emergency communication isn’t as easy, general communication maybe.
True, a 47 versus a tractor would fair better than a unit.  But you’ve still got to find a fully competent crew on the traction. Plus you’ll need route clearance,  some branch lines the line speed is substantially lower for loco hauled trains.  There are literally loads of hurdles to get over

[JayMac]

Class 769’s are for the LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) branches and North Downs services, and possibly the Didcot to Oxford shuttles. Had they electrified the routes as planned these probably won’t have been needed.

The 769 programme is months and months behind.  No confirmation that even one has been fully modified and tested yet.    ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) are in line for the first 5 now and then Northern as the latest story goes. 

Indeed. DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)/GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) should give up on the 769 plan. I strongly doubt they'll come through. New stock should be ordered. NOW!

[a-driver]

Class 769’s are for the LTV^▸ (London [and] Thames Valley) branches and North Downs services, and possibly the Didcot to Oxford shuttles. Had they electrified the routes as planned these probably won’t have been needed.

The 769 programme is months and months behind.  No confirmation that even one has been fully modified and tested yet.    ATW^▸ (Arriva Trains Wales (former TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company))) are in line for the first 5 now and then Northern as the latest story goes. 

Indeed. DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)/GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) should give up on the 769 plan. I strongly doubt they'll come through. New stock should be ordered. NOW!

Too right.  These 769’s and ex-tube stock conversions are just cheap options to plug a hole, wether it’s a result of botched electrification or just a general lack of a rolling stock strategy. There seems to be no actual long term strategy from the DfT, just jumping from one quick fix to another.

[broadgage]

I agree entirely that some new stock needs to be ordered now, but that wont help for this summer.
My proposal for a temporary derogation to use non approved stock was a short term suggestion for the here and now, not a long term solution.

Alternatively are there any surplus EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit) in storage ? class 319s or others ? could these be used, loco hauled ?