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Author Topic: Shortage of train crews on Great Western Railway - ongoing discussion  (Read 564662 times)
JayMac
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« Reply #2565 on: December 19, 2024, 11:40:33 »

Just a note to say that, even if there's no proof in the public domain, you can't claim that it doesn't exist. Confidentiality clauses exist in most commercial contracts.

Equally, you can't claim it DOES exist.

Meanwhile, my MP (Member of Parliament) is putting the question to the rail minister. When I have that response I will of course share it here.
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« Reply #2566 on: December 19, 2024, 12:42:23 »

Just a note to say that, even if there's no proof in the public domain, you can't claim that it doesn't exist. Confidentiality clauses exist in most commercial contracts.

Equally, you can't claim it DOES exist.

Meanwhile, my MP (Member of Parliament) is putting the question to the rail minister. When I have that response I will of course share it here.

When!    Cheesy

Business plan dated 14 June 2022.  Page 28.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65eadac062ff48ff7487b253/first-greater-western-limited-2022-business-plan-commitments-2022-to-2023.pdf
The extract is as follows:.

Train Crew - Seven Day Railway
4.1 4.2 The Operator will use all reasonable endeavours to increase the number of drivers with a Sunday working
commitment.

The Operator will by no later than 9 December 2022 submit an indicative costed proposal to the Secretary of State
to include Sundays in the working week for drivers during the Contract Term, and the Operator shall ensure that
such costed proposal:

(a) specifies clear and deliverable outputs and the steps required to implement such outputs;b) identifies relevant risks and potential mitigations;
(c) identifies options for delivery of outputs (including options for introduction of Sundays in the working
week for drivers from such different points during the Contract Term as the Secretary of State may
direct); and
(d) identifies all estimated potential costs including of any proposed options,

and shall do so in a manner consistent with the potential incorporation of such proposals in the draft Business Plan
to be submitted to the Secretary of State by no later than 15 December 2022 so that they are capable of being taken
forward through the annual Business Plan process set out at paragraph 3 of Chapter 7.7 (Business Plan) of the
Contract if so directed by the Secretary of State.

It is acknowledged that the Secretary of State may, in accordance with paragraph 3 (Annual Business Plan Process)
of Chapter 7.7 (Business Plan) of the Contract, propose the applicability of a business plan commitment equivalent
to paragraph 4.1 in future Contract Years.


So, a company that you believe has total control of operations, a free reign to do as it pleases..... for some reason..... has to submit a detailed and costed proposal to the Secretary of State to have Sunday's in the working week.  And that proposal can only be implemented if so directed by the Secretary of State.  To me, that sounds very much like the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) have total control. 

I'd very much like to know from your MP why the proposal wasn't agreed by the Secretary of State. 
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grahame
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« Reply #2567 on: December 19, 2024, 14:23:34 »


Indeed very much worth a read ... there is some specific mention of GWR (Great Western Railway) therein:

Quote
Small changes are underway, such as Great Western Railway transferring newly recruited drivers to contracts that included a commitment for Sunday working in 2018.

However, “without a further trade union deal this will take some time to work through [the] whole driver population,” it admitted, adding that “in line with most of the rail industry we do rely on paid overtime.”

The train company added that this is not a case of not having enough staff, but rather that employers’ contracts contain terms and conditions that mean GWR are “reliant on a number of colleagues volunteering to work overtime to cover our timetable on Sundays”.

We have a complex situation which manifests itself in different ways that have somewhat diverged in different franchises / contracts, and even they within the contract.  Northern drivers to the east of the Pennines and different to Northern drivers west of the Pennines, and on GWR it depends on which part you came from in 2006 or in the decade thereafter, or are a recent recruit.   Then on top of the complex situation you have the (to me) grey interface between First (as GWR) and HMG (as DfT» (Department for Transport - about)) where I feel that whoever is asked there's a degree of "not my choice, mate".
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JayMac
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« Reply #2568 on: December 19, 2024, 15:50:21 »

]if so directed by the Secretary of State

Quote
So, a company that you believe has total control of operations, a free reign to do as it pleases..... for some reason..... has to submit a detailed and costed proposal to the Secretary of State to have Sunday's in the working week.  And that proposal can only be implemented if so directed by the Secretary of State.  To me, that sounds very much like the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) have total control. 

I'd very much like to know from your MP (Member of Parliament) why the proposal wasn't agreed by the Secretary of State. 

Where's the mention in that 2022 business plan about recruitment? The point I've been making. You've highlighted the 'Seven Day Railway' part of the business plan. That's about GWR (Great Western Railway) providing costing to the DfT for existing staff having their contracts changed to include Sundays.

It's getting somewhat tiresome to keep repeating that the driver shortage issue goes back over a decade with FGW (First Great Western)/GWR failing to address it. Cancellations due to driver shortages occur on every day of the week.

FGW's/GWR's driver shortage problems did not suddenly pop into existence when the DfT awarded them the direct contract in 2022. This thread alone is evidence of that. And other threads on a similar theme predate the start of this one in 2017.

Instead of recruiting since 2012 FGW/GWR were happy to take the cheaper option of paying overtime to their existing drivers, relying on goodwill. That just stored up problems for the future - an aging driver pool, losing the goodwill, industrial action...

When!    Cheesy

Okay. I'm dealing with politicians here so... If

« Last Edit: December 19, 2024, 16:00:35 by JayMac » Logged

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« Reply #2569 on: December 19, 2024, 15:54:51 »

You clearly haven't read it. 

I have. Don't presume to tell me what I have and haven't done.

But do please help me out if I've missed something in the business plan about DfT» (Department for Transport - about) control of hiring of staff. I've attached the document to aid you.

I can also attache previous franchise agreements and service level commitments if you'd like. I've read those from start to finish too. I continue to await PROOF that the DfT are, and have in the past, been dictating to GWR (Great Western Railway) whether they can or can't hire sufficient staff to meet their obligations to provide the timetabled service.

These agreements and contracts generally get looked at by highly paid lawyers, only a muppet would agree to a business requirement that requires 50,000 hours annually of train crew (or whatever the figure is) and then agree to a staffing level that only covers about three quarters of the requirement.

You shouldn't work on assumption that because staff would work 60 hour weeks 100 years ago, then they will still so in mid 2020s when pay is higher and work-life balance expectation is completely different. Although GWR management don't seem to get this as I have seen the history argument (it used to be ok) used recently.
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« Reply #2570 on: December 19, 2024, 19:06:05 »

Where's the mention in that 2022 business plan about recruitment? The point I've been making. You've highlighted the 'Seven Day Railway' part of the business plan. That's about GWR (Great Western Railway) providing costing to the DfT» (Department for Transport - about) for existing staff having their contracts changed to include Sundays.
No. Those costings GWR provided to the DfT included the exact number and cost of additional drivers required.... and that is, and still remains the stumbling block.  The DfT opting to cover Sunday's on overtime with a commitment to work Sunday's.   
Every driver is rostered Sunday's, but can obviously make themselves unavailable if they choose.  You take those rostered Sunday's, you work out what that equates to over the course of the year and you add that to the basic salary.  That becomes pensionable etc.  It's relatively easy to sort. The issue is the extra number of drivers required which is what the DfT refuses to agree to.

A commitment to work Sunday's does not work.  There are issues with it.  If you are contracted to work Monday to Saturday, you can only apply for leave on those days.  You can not apply for leave on a Sunday.  Therefore, for example, f you book yourself a Saturday to Saturday holiday but you are rostered to work that Sunday, you can't get out of it. 

Quote
It's getting somewhat tiresome to keep repeating that the driver shortage issue goes back over a decade with FGW (First Great Western)/GWR failing to address it. Cancellations due to driver shortages occur on every day of the week.

It is indeed extremely tiresome.

Quote
FGW's/GWR's driver shortage problems did not suddenly pop into existence when the DfT awarded them the direct contract in 2022. This thread alone is evidence of that. And other threads on a similar theme predate the start of this one in 2017.

Instead of recruiting since 2012 FGW/GWR were happy to take the cheaper option of paying overtime to their existing drivers, relying on goodwill. That just stored up problems for the future - an aging driver pool, losing the goodwill, industrial action...

You haven't got a shortage of drivers, in fact, they're over established at many depots.  The issue is not all the drivers sign all the routes and/or traction.  That issues stems from the huge number of new drivers they have recruited over the last 10-15years.  If you were based at Paddington depot 10-12 years ago and walked in the mess room tomorrow, you wouldn't recognise any faces such is the turnover of staff.
You train new drivers right up until they can become productive and then you let them loose on the mainline.  This gives them time to settle in, find their feet, grow in confidence etc.  You don't overload them with all the routes in one hit. That's not the way to retain key information.
Not only have they recruited a significant number of new drivers over the last 10-15 years, but you've had the IET (Intercity Express Train)'s come into service and 387's.  You've had the Turbo's move West, 158's move West and Castle sets.  That's all new traction training and handling hours. 
Covid then came along and everything came to a halt. Which things resumed, some instructors weren't comfortable having others in the cab and gave up the role so new instructors had to be recruited and trained.  There's still a backlog of training outstanding and there's still a large number of wanna-be train drivers in the talent pool awaiting start dates so it's an ever improving situation, rest day working is, from what I hear, certainly reducing.  However, July 2025 see's the pay rise reflected in final salary pensions so you could see an exodus then, and if that involves old BR (British Rail(ways)) staff, they only have to provide minimal notice. 


Sunday's will always remain an issue until the DfT agrees to a solution.  Either a rise in Sunday's rates or bringing Sunday's into the working week.  The ball is in the DfT's court.  The DfT have agreed increased payments for 22nd (albeit to late) and the 29th so we shall see the outcome of that shortly.


Okay. I'm dealing with politicians here so... If

I will wait with bated breath!

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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #2571 on: December 19, 2024, 19:16:14 »

May I step in here, quietly, as an Administrator, simply to thank all of you contributing to this rather 'lively debate', for keeping it polite?

Thank you. CfN.  Wink

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Bob_Blakey
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« Reply #2572 on: December 20, 2024, 09:10:17 »

I completely fail to understand how the ongoing reliance on overtime and/or rest day working can be a better financial option than a fully contracted workforce given that this morning, on Talk, Simon Calder, who I think is generally regarded as knowing his subject, stated that the (daily) additional payments were £250-£300 for some on-train staff such as TMs(resolve) and £600 for drivers.
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ChrisB
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« Reply #2573 on: December 20, 2024, 10:58:43 »

Okay. I'm dealing with politicians here so... If

I will wait with bated breath!

Not entirely sure just where you got that quote from, a-driver Huh Shocked
The post that you quote is actually this one - and those words you quote don't appear!  Grin

Just a note to say that, even if there's no proof in the public domain, you can't claim that it doesn't exist. Confidentiality clauses exist in most commercial contracts.
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ray951
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« Reply #2574 on: December 20, 2024, 11:01:53 »

According to the Oxford Clarion: https://bsky.app/profile/oxfordclarion.bsky.social/post/3ldq7suc7hc2n
"A last-minute pay deal has averted collapse of GWR (Great Western Railway)’s service this Sunday (22nd) and next (29th), but widespread cancellations are still expected.
GWR has agreed to pay drivers and guards double rate.
The company does not have enough staff to run a full Sunday service without overtime."
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ChrisB
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« Reply #2575 on: December 20, 2024, 11:02:58 »

I completely fail to understand how the ongoing reliance on overtime and/or rest day working can be a better financial option than a fully contracted workforce given that this morning, on Talk, Simon Calder, who I think is generally regarded as knowing his subject, stated that the (daily) additional payments were £250-£300 for some on-train staff such as TMs(resolve) and £600 for drivers.

All the employment on-costs that apply to staff - final salary pension, employment taxes, additional depot space, that sort of thing - it all adds up. Overtime just attracts a small amount of additional NI.
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« Reply #2576 on: December 20, 2024, 11:33:39 »

Some good news on the Sunday front this morning…..

The DfT» (Department for Transport - about) have now given GWR (Great Western Railway) approval to restart formal conversations with the trade unions to find a solution.


Yet a further indication on who has been blocking a resolution.
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a-driver
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« Reply #2577 on: December 20, 2024, 11:44:45 »

Okay. I'm dealing with politicians here so... If

I will wait with bated breath!

Not entirely sure just where you got that quote from, a-driver Huh Shocked
The post that you quote is actually this one - and those words you quote don't appear!  Grin


 #2565 #2566 and #2568….. but I’m no good with quotes! 
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #2578 on: December 20, 2024, 16:49:51 »

................what a difference double time makes to the desire to spend time with one's family!  Wink
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« Reply #2579 on: December 20, 2024, 17:00:43 »

Then normal no service resumed on January 5th.
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