Further restriction on off peak tickets

[whole diary]

[John R]

I noticed at Paddington this evening a notice advising that the earliest departure for off peak tickets has been pushed back 45 mins from 0815 to 0900.

This seems a significant variation. Are there no restrictions on TOCS as to when off peak fares are valid, so that over time they can continue to be reduced?

[ChrisB]

Yes there is - I know that off-peak have to be valid weekdays after 1901 for example. I guess there is an AM limit too, but I don't know what it is. Arrivals before 1000 into LOndon for sure are peak, going out, I don't know, but 0900 would be within the limit, I suspect. So it's a commercial decision.

[JayMac]

Looking at one flow, Swindon - London Terminals, Off Peak Return, with restriction code LC^▸ (Level Crossing). It appears GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) have made this change to ticket issuing systems, but not bothered to tell National Rail Enquiries (NRE^‡(resolve)) or ensure they update their information (as of 8th September 2017).

NRE is the definitive source for ticket information. Tickets show the specific restriction code. Therefore the validity is as shown on NRE. Regardless of how many posters GWR may put up.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/64148.aspx

Then there's GWR's 'Guide to Travelling With Us'  available from stations (I've just picked one up from Taunton). That tells intending passengers that Off Peak tickets are valid from Paddington after 0810.

[Timmer]

Another fare increase by stealth 

[ChrisB]

And?.....

Every company does it. Don't hear complaints other than rail.

[JayMac]

I despair sometimes at your defence of the indefensible, ChrisB.

Just because it's done, doesn't mean it should be.

I'd be mightily pissed off if I brought this to the attention of the Customer Panel and got the response you've just given. 

[John R]

I can't easily find anything in the franchise agreement that restricts GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s ability to change the classification of trains from off peak to peak.

So for Bristol passengers that's a 117% increase from £46.90 to £102.  Reasonable cause for complaint in my opinion, even if ChrisB doesn't agree.

Curiously the 0830 from BRI^» (Bristol Temple Meads - next trains) to PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) is off peak, but in the opposite direction is peak, even though intuitively the greater flow will be towards London. So how long before that gets restricted too?







 

[Timmer]

And?.....

Every company does it. Don't hear complaints other than rail.

Really? Ever heard of 'shrinkflation' where companies make their products smaller but charge the same price? I'm sure if you went to consumer based forums there would be plenty ranting about that.

[Richard Fairhurst]

Are there any details online about this? What flows/restrictions it affects - are we just talking "out of Paddington", or across the GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) network in general? (As it happens, the GWR website appears to be unreachable right now...)

[JayMac]

I'd be shocked if GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) bothered to put any information about the massive price hike by stealth online.

Previous form tells us that they think a poster or two, after the fact, is sufficient.

I doubt the posters even bother to say that tickets purchased before the price hike are still valid after 0810.

Not that that changes current validity until the definitive source, National Rail Enquiries, is updated.

[Timmer]

Well hopefully this topic started by John R will prompt anyone at GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) who reads posts on this forum to ensure it's made more well known so their passengers don't get caught out.

[ChrisB]

It was the 'by stealth' I wasn't exactly defending, but referring to.

All sorts of companies do it, and very few get called on it. Toblerone I thonk was the last one? But washing powder/liquid has recently seen boxes/bottles shrink & I've yet to see any comment anywhere.

I agree with BNM about tickets purchased in advance of the change. They must remain valid. I'm not sure many though would have the courage to fight the non-mention on NRE^‡(resolve)'s website of a change to a validity code. Frankly, they ought to set up a new code for new sales, then there could be no arguments. But how many even know that NRE's website is the arbiter of validities? (Mind you, where does it say this, BNM?)

This presumably came in at the September fares change point? (which would have been Sunday 3rd?)

However. If tickets purchased prior to the rise date are still valid, how other than posters do they announce the rise?
Any shop would simply change the price tag. Online, this will have happened with the fares no longer available being not shown since the rise and the new price is displayed. Ditto on TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine). Presumably the same at ticket offices.

Similarly, no shop/airline gives advance notice of rises, prices simply change. So why do we expect rail to be different? Serious Q.

[JayMac]

Definitive:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/46383.aspx

A change in the validity of a train ticket is a very different beast to price rises or shrinkflation (plenty of news and social media coverage) in shops.

[John R]

It was the 'by stealth' I wasn't exactly defending, but referring to.

All sorts of companies do it, and very few get called on it. Toblerone I thonk was the last one? But washing powder/liquid has recently seen boxes/bottles shrink & I've yet to see any comment anywhere.

I agree with BNM about tickets purchased in advance of the change. They must remain valid. I'm not sure many though would have the courage to fight the non-mention on NRE^‡(resolve)'s website of a change to a validity code. Frankly, they ought to set up a new code for new sales, then there could be no arguments. But how many even know that NRE's website is the arbiter of validities? (Mind you, where does it say this, BNM?)

This presumably came in at the September fares change point? (which would have been Sunday 3rd?)

However. If tickets purchased prior to the rise date are still valid, how other than posters do they announce the rise?
Any shop would simply change the price tag. Online, this will have happened with the fares no longer available being not shown since the rise and the new price is displayed. Ditto on TVMs^▸ (Ticket Vending Machine). Presumably the same at ticket offices.

Similarly, no shop/airline gives advance notice of rises, prices simply change. So why do we expect rail to be different? Serious Q.

There's actually been quite a lot of discussion about shrinkflation in the media.

As to the last question, with shops and airlines you usually have a choice as to where you take your custom, and indeed in most cases whether you even have to make the purchase/journey.  With rail you very rarely have a choice of supplier, and the railways are a public service, albeit in part privatised. So it does command a bit of a monopoly, and thus I believe is in a different position.

[stuving]

Looking at the full restriction code LC^▸ (Level Crossing) text on BRFares (dated 3 September 2017) it says:

OUTWARD TRAVEL

Not valid for travel on trains
timed to depart after 04:29
and before the times shown
from the following stations:

   but the following long list of stations does not include Paddington.

RETURN TRAVEL

Not valid on trains timed to
depart:
London Paddington after 04:29
and before 08:10 and after
16:40 until 18:31
Reading after 04:29 and before
08:35 and after 17:10 until
19:01
Slough after 04:29 and before
07:50
London Waterloo after 04:29
and before 08:15
Not valid on trains timed to
arrive Salisbury after 04:29
and before 09:30

   and that's all; note no catch-all restriction.

Down at the bottom, in the "unpublished restrictions" it says:

Outward Journey
From                      Until              Restriction(s) below apply on these days only:
Mon 4 Sep 2017   Sun 17 Dec 2017      Mo Tu We Th Fr   
Not valid to depart   DIDCOT PARKWAY   0001–0929   on any TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company)
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   0430–0848   on any TOC
Not valid to depart   SWINDON (WILTS)   0546–0904   on any TOC

Return Journey
Mon 4 Sep 2017   Sun 17 Dec 2017      Mo Tu We Th Fr   
Not valid to depart   LONDON PADDINGTON   1641–1830   on any TOC

Those are the only items I can see for travel from Paddington applying today, among many for other cases.

Make of that what you will. AFAICS^▸ (As Far As I Can See), the only train leaving PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) for SWI^» (Swindon - next trains) after 08:10 and not after 09:00 is the 08:30 to Bristol, for which Journey Planner does indeed not off offer an SVR to Swindon.