Does the North get a raw deal on rail?

[whole diary]

[grahame]

From The BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page)

Reality Check: Does the North get a raw deal on rail?

Claim: It takes longer today to get from Chester to Manchester than it did in 1962. - Andy Burnham, Mayor of Greater Manchester

Very interesting article ... goes on to explore further

Its analysis of historical train timetables show that in 1962 the fastest service from Chester to Manchester took 56 minutes, stopping at one station in between.

Today it takes 60 minutes but makes seven station stops.

By contrast, according to TfGM^▸ (Transport for Greater Manchester. ), the fastest journey from Manchester to London in 1962 was 220 minutes.  It is now 124 minutes, a reduction of nearly 44%.

TfGM has also looked at how other journeys to and from Manchester have fared since 1962.  All of them are now faster.

Do any of our members have 1962 (ish) timetables to hand to make comparisons for our towna and cities?

[IndustryInsider]

1974 is the earliest printed timetable I have, so post steam but pre-HST^▸ (High Speed Train).

The 1965 western region timetable is available to view online here: http://timetableworld.com/book_viewer.php?id=12&section_id=15

[Oxonhutch]

London Midland Region summer 1963 so I have had to compare limited cross-country traffic via Reading

Pines Express 1963 (already moved from the beloved S&D^▸ (Somerset and Dorset Joint Railway)) versus XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) last Wednesday 23/08/17. I tried a table, but failed ...

Note that the 1963 route is via the ex-GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) via Shrewsbury and Wellington so not a fair comparison on that interval.

Station : depart 1963: depart 2017: notes

Manchester Piccadilly: 10A00: 1127: A= reservations available 2/-
Wolverhampton LL: 12u18: 1241: now HL
Birmingham Snow Hill: 12u43: 1304: now NS
Leamington Spa General: 1309: 1338
Oxford: 1404: 1415
Reading West: 1446: 1446: now reverse RDG^‡(resolve)
Basingstoke: 15a08: 1510
Southampton Central: 15a52: 1543
Bournemouth Central: 16a32: 16a11: 1963 terminate Bournemouth West 16a44

[Oxonhutch]

Chester General to Manchester Exchange 1963:

Stopping train 1:25, Express 1:05 all via Warrington BQ

[stuving]

Chester General to Manchester Exchange 1963:

Stopping train 1:25, Express 1:05 all via Warrington BQ

There's a 1962 London Midland on Timetable World too - almost certainly the source of that article.

That shows only two trains per day via Warrington that get under an hour, by only stopping there, one taking 56 minutes. Mainly it's 1:10 for all seven stops, and a typically erratic 90 minute service interval. Now its "an hour" (i.e. give or take five minutes) with all seven stops, every hour, so the two faster ones would arguably not be worth running.

The slower trains, via Knutsford, used to be once an hour plus commuting and Saturday extras, taking 1:15. Now it takes longer, nearly 1:30, because it can't go from Altrincham to Manchester Central along what's now Metrolink, so it takes a long dog-leg via Stockport. However it (rather unBeechingly) makes more stops - sixteen - on the way, so at least it serves more places.

So which is better?

[martyjon]

Just checked, 17:45 Paddington to Bristol 1hr 55m on the Blue Pullman with one stop at Bath.

Current 18:00 Paddingotn - Bristol 1hr 43m with 5 stops.

[simonw]

The argument whether the North gets a raw deal, or not, is very annoying. Everywhere outside of London gets a raw deal. It is not just the North.

[johnneyw]

The argument whether the North gets a raw deal, or not, is very annoying. Everywhere outside of London gets a raw deal. It is not just the North.

I would go as far as saying that the wider Bristol area has had a particularly bad deal, even compared to much of the Midlands and north.

[Richard Fairhurst]

The argument whether the North gets a raw deal, or not, is very annoying. Everywhere outside of London gets a raw deal. It is not just the North.

Exactly that point made in today's Observer article: https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/aug/26/all-aboard-northern-rail-powerhouse-crossrail-2-midland-main-line

Yet while the north has cried foul over transport cuts that may never occur, the true regional losers have struggled to make their voices heard. MP^▸ (Member of Parliament) Lilian Greenwood, chair elect of the Transport Select Committee, says: “They’ve been clearly capturing the headlines but other regions feel even worse done to. As a Midlands MP [for Nottingham South] I’m thinking no one ever remembers us. People here have been very concerned about the scrapping of Midland mainline electrification: it’s obviously very important for economic regeneration.

“We’re also home to the UK^▸ (United Kingdom)’s largest concentration of rail engineering businesses. The message to them has been that we will press ahead with electrification – so most suppliers haven’t pressed ahead with diesel technology.”

[Timmer]

The North are getting new trains as part of the new franchise agreements started or about to start.

Northern
Transpennine
West Midlands

Here in the West Country we're getting  the casts off from the Thames Valley. As good as Turbos are, they aren't new trains. To conclude, I think those in the Bristol area and Southwest travelling on local services have a right to say 'we're getting a raw deal'.

[Bmblbzzz]

This reminds me of the story that was appearing in various local papers recently, "Town X to London is the slowest/most expensive train journey in the whole country" with cherry-picked routes to match.

[TonyK]

The argument whether the North gets a raw deal, or not, is very annoying. Everywhere outside of London gets a raw deal. It is not just the North.

Hear, hear! The North, or at least parts thereof, gets a raw deal. So does Bristol and the south west. You can start with the postponement of electrification, move on to Portishead, then capacity on the Severn Beach line, Henbury, and the despicable MetroBust to "make up for" the lack of light rail, and not be more than half an hour from the centre. Then there's Dawlish avoidance, Okehampton, the Tarka^▸ (Line from Barnstaple to Exeter) line, just about everything in Cornwall, Taunton to Barnstaple, and so on.

[johnneyw]

South Devon seems to have found way to buck the trend with the South Devon Metro, in actual effect, being built now if you look at the recent progress with Newcourt and Cranbrook stations now open and new ones at Marsh Barton and Edginswell seemingly imminent.
It seems to be down to regional political will combined with effective cooperation with local business and other interest groups.
Some lessons to be learnt by other regions?

[grahame]

South Devon seems to have found way to buck the trend with the South Devon Metro, in actual effect, being built now if you look at the recent progress with Newcourt and Cranbrook stations now open and new ones at Marsh Barton and Edginswell seemingly imminent.
It seems to be down to regional political will combined with effective cooperation with local business and other interest groups.
Some lessons to be learnt by other regions?

Devon provides an impressive demonstration of very positive public transport update and development.  It involves impressive people, backed up by (or perhaps provoking) a general regional will.  Yes, there are good lessons to learn / examples to adapt and follow.

[grahame]

This reminds me of the story that was appearing in various local papers recently, "Town X to London is the slowest/most expensive train journey in the whole country" with cherry-picked routes to match.

And very effective those stories can be at times when you want to stir a press story.

Time was (2007 to December 2013) that if you travelled by train from London to Melksham, catching the first available train of the day, you would arrive in Melksham later than had you travelled from London to Fort William by the first available train of the day.  (Fort William arrival at about 16:09, Melksham at 19:18).   Made a wonderful headline, but what an utter nonsense - anyone with an ounce of sense knew to take a train to Chippenham, walk across the town to the bus station, and catch the x34 or the 234, or travel on a Saturday when a 15:21 arrival at Melksham Station from London was possible.