The future of the East Coast Mark 4s ?

[whole diary]

[Kernowman]

Sorry if something like this has already been posted, but any ideas on the future of the East Coast Mark 4s when they are replaced by the 800/801s. Will they:

Operate as now between an electric loco and a Dvt but on other lines
Operate between a diesel loco and a Dvt but on other lines
Operate between a pair of HST^▸ (High Speed Train) power cars but on other lines
Be scrapped
None of the above
All of the above

Best,
K

[IndustryInsider]

I have a nasty feeling at least some will go to the cutter's torch now that Greater Anglia, who would have been the obvious beneficiary, have ordered new trains.

The main problem with loco hauled stock in the modern era is its poor acceleration compared with the likes of a Pendolino, which is one of the main reasons new loco hauled trains are only considered an option in a few isolated niche cases.  I don't think we will see a new locomotive hauled train running at over 100mph in the near future.

[John R]

A few are supposed to be staying with Virgin EC but there is no obvious use for the rest. Given Trans Pennine are procuring new loco hauled stock when they could have taken some of the Mk 4 s, that's probably a clue as to how attractive they are to potential operators.  

[Timmer]

The last I read was that Virgin East Coast were going to operate some shortened sets of seven coaches, down from nine coaches, to operate the express limited stop services between London and Edinburgh. That was a while back and may have changed as these things so often do in the world of Dft.

As for the rest of the fleet...Thoughts mentioned have been London to Norwich (now brand new IC^▸ (Inter City) fleet) and London-Sheffield (now bi-mode)

The only other line that is suitable would be the West Coast mainline if an open operator can find space to run them on a line that's already nearing capacity.

[Richard Fairhurst]

CrossCountry? Sorely needs a capacity boost.

[paul7575]

The latest version of GC^» (Great Central Railway - link to heritage line)'s Blackpool to Euston service track access application, (following their previous application timing out after the proposed short Pendolinos never materialised),  is to use Class 91/Mk 4 sets.

I still don't think it will ever get off the ground, but it is definitely in the system...

Paul

[Rhydgaled]

Given Trans Pennine are procuring new loco hauled stock when they could have taken some of the Mk 4 s, that's probably a clue as to how attractive they are to potential operators.

I thought the reason TPE^▸ (Trans Pennine Express) ordered the mark 5a coaches was they needed some new stock quickly and couldn't wait for new-build multiple units. According to Wikipedia the mark 5a coaches are due in 2018; mark 4s are not due off-lease until 2020 so it could be that mark 4s weren't an option simply because they would not be available until too late.

As for the rest of the fleet...Thoughts mentioned have been London to Norwich (now brand new IC^▸ (Inter City) fleet) and London-Sheffield (now bi-mode)

Neither of those routes made sense for IC225; without tilt the only sensible alternative to the ECML^▸ (East Coast Main Line) for the 140mph class 91s was probably the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line). The mark 4 coaches (without the 91s) could have been useful on the Norwich route or Midland Main Line (MML^» (Midland Main Line. - about)). In fact, if somebody can come up with an ETS^▸ (Electric Train Supply) (Electric Train Supply) adpater for class 43s to allow them to work with mark 4s, I think using them on the MML could still be a good option.  That would allow them to run on through CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024) (ScotRail are keeping IC125s going at least that long) and thus give a chance of MML electrification in CP7. Such a shame the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) want bi-modes to lock the MML into diesel for another 30 years; that route should have been wired before I was born (BR^▸ (British Rail(ways))'s 1981 electrification plan put the MML before Newcastle to Edinburgh).

[ChrisB]

Someone mentioned XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise))....I'll second that.

[IndustryInsider]

If it's with XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) they'll need to be diesel hauled with (presumably) 68s and the existing DVT^‡(resolve).  Not sure of the extent of modifications needed for that to happen and they'd need to be fairly short formations for the schedules not to take a hammering because of poor acceleration.

It's possible of course, but if the current climate of cheap finance for new trains continues then I would imagine XC would go for the more flexible option of new bi-modes from either Hitachi or Stadler.

[Rhydgaled]

If it's with XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) they'll need to be diesel hauled with (presumably) 68s and the existing DVT^‡(resolve).  Not sure of the extent of modifications needed for that to happen and they'd need to be fairly short formations for the schedules not to take a hammering because of poor acceleration.

Not only acceleration, but XC's current intercity fleet is all 125mph capable. That doesn't necessarily mean that 125mph linespeeds are available to them of course but it certainly felt like we were travelling at a considerable speed when I did Bristol Parkway to Derby and back recently; perhaps not 125mph but I assume they are able to run at speeds in excess of the 100mph capability of a 68. It might work for XC's Turbostar routes though, provided they don't rely on differential speed limits that are available to 170s but not 68s and mark 4s.

Whatever happens, the Midland Main Line and XC intercity routes are not in a good place; due to the failure of successive governments to electrify our main line routes. High-performance 125mph diesel trains are not a good idea with greenhouse gasses and other harmful emmissions to consider; the amount of fuel needed. Better to use the existing class 43s with more-modern coaches (in the case of XC, they already will have mark 3s with power-doors so it might make more sense to add to that fleet than adding mark 4s into the mix too, though avoiding the cost of modifying mark 3s by using mark 4s isn't too crasy an idea either) and work towards them eventually being replaced by electric traction in my opinion.