Electric and autonomous vehicles

[whole diary]

[Bmblbzzz]

I expect that, as Red Squirrel says and as I've heard from a Nissan Leaf owner I know, the data is recorded by the car without any need for a second meter. I also expect that, as Broadgage says, it's simpler to do it via VED (and via VAT^▸ (Value Added Tax) on all electricity).

[ChrisB]

That depends on whether a flat rate is chosen over charging for each charge. Is the vehicle able to differentiate between a quick charge & a trickle charge, for example?

Flat Rate is most easily done through VED, while a usage-charge via collecting the car's charge recording somehow, providing the answer to the query above is positive. There is an argument for fast-charges to carry a (slightly) higher rate of duty than a trickle charge.

[stuving]

I suspect that attempting to charge a higher rate for electricity used for battery charging will be fraught with difficulties and open to fraud.
Simpler to give up on that idea and raise the money by either a flat rate road tax, or by charging for road use per mile.

Most European countries have national plug/socket systems. Many have been replaced by Schuko/Europlug, including Italy's; these come in two types, with different pin size and spacing. That's because electricity used to be supplied separately for power and lighting, at different rates. I'm sure you can guess how well that was enforced - especially in Italy.

[martyjon]

Going off topic this thread isn't it but here is my pennyworth.

For electric vehicles a small meter no bigger than a box of matches could be fitted with a sensor to record the hours the power pedal is in use and can be used to determine an equivalent to the vehicle fuel duty payable on a specific vehicle. Thus a motorist wouldn't be paying twice when for example one takes a foreign holiday and returns to a flat battery.

A similar system was used by plant hire companies years ago and may still be used today whereby the hire charges are based on a low rental fee over a long term, and I mean years, plus a ' use by the hour ' charge.

How this ' electricity fuel duty ' was payable to HMRC is another matter but I would assume that it could be payable in advance by means of a smart card which would become the electric cars equivalent of an ignition key.

[ChrisB]

What about adaptors for use abroad?....and different voltages.....

[Bmblbzzz]

EVs cope with different voltages anyway and some (probably most) will take DC^▸ (Direct Current) as well as AC.

[ChrisB]

so it'll just be adaptors that need carrying?

[Chris from Nailsea]

I'll be very happy to do that, Red Squirrel - but which particular posts did you have in mind?

[Red Squirrel]

I think it might involve quite a bit of work... so let's blame grahame and say it all started here:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5066.msg217146#msg217146

Or you could say here:

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=5066.msg217198#msg217198

[Chris from Nailsea]

Ah, yes: I see what you mean, Red Squirrel. 

I have started the task of moving and merging those relevant topics, but it will probably have to be completed tomorrow - I now need some sleep! 

[Red Squirrel]

Thanks, CfN. Your efforts are appreciated!

[Bmblbzzz]

Thank you for the splitting and moving. It must have been quite a task.

Coincidentally, I was thinking about this thread, which was then still empty AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know), just yesterday. Specifically about autonomous vehicles. (Oh no! Will this require splitting from electric vehicles?!!!) Simply that, if you have a car made in the last ten years or so, you probably already have an autonomous vehicle. Think about what a modern car does: locks the doors without you pressing any buttons, turns its lights on as soon as it gets dark, switches on the wipers when it detects rain, turns the indicators off when you straighten up after a turn. Bleeps when it detects something close behind as you're parking. Some even brake autonomously if they detect an obstacle. And switch the hazard warning lights on when you hit it. And of course they've been selecting their own gears since the 1930s. We don't think of this as autonomous because it's come in bit by bit over time, but it's in this way, as increasing driver aids, that totally autonomous vehicles are most likely to come about. The self-steering, lane following functions in Teslas and others (Audi have something similar) is obviously a big step towards this. Over the next few years and decades it will inevitably trickle down to lower models. Hopefully it will become more reliable too!

[Bmblbzzz]

Update to my post of yesterday: the European Commission is considering making Autonomous Emergency Braking and Intelligent Speed Adaptation compulsory in new vehicles. ISA is "an in-vehicle system that uses information on the position of the vehicle in a network in relation to the speed limit in force at that particular location" to prevent or deter exceeding the speed limit.
https://www.euroncap.com/en/vehicle-safety/the-rewards-explained/autonomous-emergency-braking/
https://ec.europa.eu/transport/road_safety/specialist/knowledge/speed/new_technologies_new_opportunities/intelligent_speed_adaptation_isa_en

[Red Squirrel]

...if you have a car made in the last ten years or so, you probably already have an autonomous vehicle.

The SAE recognises six levels of autonomy:

 0    No Driving Automation   
 1    Driver Assistance
 2    Partial Driving Automation
 3    Conditional Driving Automation
 4    High Driving Automation
 5    Full Driving Automation

So most modern cars are at level 1 or 2.

[TonyK]

I am not one to rave about cars, having a reasonably sensible one to get me around. But while in a car pak airside at an airport, I remarked on one I saw parked, because it looked posh and I didn't recognise the badge.
"It's my Tesla" said the man beside me. "I'll show you."
I made to walk to the car, but he took his phone from his pocket and opened an app. The car then came to us. sans chauffeur.
Useful add-on, or gimmick?