The End of First class?

[whole diary]

[Timmer]

Catering seems to always removed when a 2car substitutes the 3car - I was wondering whether the door/corridor width was the problem? Are these trains disabled-accessible?

There used to be a trolley service on the Bristol-Weymouth line which was operated by 150s so I don't see there being a problem with providing a trolley service apart from the train being very busy being only 2 car.

[martyjon]

Catering seems to always removed when a 2car substitutes the 3car - I was wondering whether the door/corridor width was the problem? Are these trains disabled-accessible?

There used to be a trolley service on the Bristol-Weymouth line which was operated by 150s so I don't see there being a problem with providing a trolley service apart from the train being very busy being only 2 car.

Going back many years now my return journey from Weymouth - Bristol one Saturday had a trolley service on it and it was on a sick 155, yes 155 before they split them to build a driving cab ' in the middle ends ' and re-classify the resultant single car units 153's. The cause of the illness was an engine failure on one of the two cars but the unit manfully struggled all the way back to Bristol and further as I left the service at Yate. I think the final destination of that service was Birmingham International, it was a Saturday and the operator was the Provincial Railways division of British Rail.

[grahame]

Catering seems to always removed when a 2car substitutes the 3car - I was wondering whether the door/corridor width was the problem? Are these trains disabled-accessible?

There used to be a trolley service on the Bristol-Weymouth line which was operated by 150s so I don't see there being a problem with providing a trolley service apart from the train being very busy being only 2 car.

Should be able to do a trolley in most 150/2s ... not quite so sure about a 150/1, or the 150/2 that has 2 + 3 seating (150263?) ; can't be 150002 as that's 3 car, nor 2 x 153 as they're not route cleared to Brighton.

[Timmer]

Should be able to do a trolley in most 150/2s ... not quite so sure about a 150/1, or the 150/2 that has 2 + 3 seating (150263?) ; can't be 150002 as that's 3 car, nor 2 x 153 as they're not route cleared to Brighton.

This was back in the days when all 150s were 2+3 seating so yes you can squeeze a trolley down the aisle 

[devonexpress]

The problem is with First Class apart from a big leather seat, a table and a free coffee or tea, what has it got that standard class hasn't?

None of the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) offer anything really worthy of upgrading to First Class.   For example a return between Exeter & Newton Abbot costs £5.80 for standard, and for First its a whopping £24, on most services I can get a seat in standard, and a coffee for less than a tenner, so what I am paying the extra £14 for? Free Wifi, No!, At   Seat Service, Hardly.

If we look at the airlines, business class or first start with having a free glass of champagne or a gin. Followed by a full meal or snacks in business. Whilst this may not be possible for train companies, I certainly don't see why a First Class customer should pay £500 for a trip to London, and then be expected to pay £18 for breakfast, plus tips for the staff.

The GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) rebrand is almost a shambles, repainting old, depraved stock that was promised to be removed, boosting staff moral(which only happened for a time), repainting stations(only a select few, before they gave up).

Train companies are seriously going to need to look at themselves and what they want to offer, because otherwise, UK^▸ (United Kingdom) railways will just become buses on rails...

[broadgage]

Buses on rails indeed !
I thought that I was the only one to compare DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) unfavourably to buses, and to complain about bus style seating layout.

[John R]

The problem is with First Class apart from a big leather seat, a table and a free coffee or tea, what has it got that standard class hasn't?

None of the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) offer anything really worthy of upgrading to First Class.   For example a return between Exeter & Newton Abbot costs £5.80 for standard, and for First its a whopping £24, on most services I can get a seat in standard, and a coffee for less than a tenner, so what I am paying the extra £14 for? Free Wifi, No!, At   Seat Service, Hardly.

If we look at the airlines, business class or first start with having a free glass of champagne or a gin. Followed by a full meal or snacks in business. Whilst this may not be possible for train companies, I certainly don't see why a First Class customer should pay £500 for a trip to London, and then be expected to pay £18 for breakfast, plus tips for the staff.

So for my commute from NLS to SWI^» (Swindon - next trains) it cost about an extra £7 per day, for which I got:-

2 hours of a comfortable reclining seat
A guaranteed seat, especially valuable in the evening
A relatively quiet environment
A nice big table to put my papers/lap top drinks etc on
Free hot drinks/cold drinks/nibbles etc all brought to my seat, with at least three runs of the trolley during the hour long journey
A free newspaper (Times)
Nice friendly customer hosts who knew me, what I usually had etc (especially the Plymouth crewed morning services)

That made the difference between the 10 hours a week being an endurance and a pleasurable experience, and was worth every penny.

And it's not true that none of the TOC's offer anything worthwhile.  Virgin West and East Coast offer free catering. It's debatable as to the quality and quantity these days, although I did manage to consume four bottles of beer on my last journey from Edinburgh to London when it was still East Coast, which made the journey very enjoyable. 

By the way, an annual season ticket from Exeter and Newton Abbot works out around £1.29 per journey more in 1st Class than in standard. That's less than a copy of the Times.

(edited to correct cost from £14 per day to £7 per day)

[JayMac]

None of the TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) offer anything really worthy of upgrading to First Class.   For example a return between Exeter & Newton Abbot costs £5.80 for standard, and for First its a whopping £24, on most services I can get a seat in standard, and a coffee for less than a tenner, so what I am paying the extra £14 for? Free Wifi, No!, At   Seat Service, Hardly.

£5.80 is the Std Class Off Peak Day Return. 1st Class Off Peak Day Return for that journey is £14.40, not £24. Coffee, cake/biscuits, fruit/savouries each way and you've got your value.

To use that journey as an example and then go on to compare trains with airlines is rather disingenuous. How many flights with Business Class are there from Exeter to Newton Abbot?

As for £500 for a trip to London. What GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) fare are you looking at there?

£409 1st Anytime Return from Penzance to Paddington? That one though only bars travel on one train each way on a weekday, the 0505 from Penzance and, Mon-Thurs, the 1703 from Paddington. Otherwise it's £274.30 for the 1st Off Peak Return. Book in Advance and you can  travel 1st Class from Penzance to Paddington and back for as little as £112.

1st Class on GWR from Devon and Cornwall always seems healthily loaded throughout the day, so people are paying the fares. Even if others say (with added hyperbole) the offer is too expensive.

[devonexpress]

Dearie me, talk about stirring the abocarte, All im saying is for a lot of people the price of First Class doesn't justify the cost. Most people buy coffee, and the times in shops or well before getting on the train.

Train enthusiasts are always the same though, sticking up for the train company and calling commuters idiots. Its no wonder it takes years before anything gets done to improve the passenger experience. For example most people in standard would like a at seat service because of laptops, luggage and not wanting to lose their seat, yet enthusiast slam it down, and say that a buffet car is needed. Why is it when passengers don't want it. Airline and Bus companies are miles ahead of the railways these days with smart ticketing, comfort, accessibility and age of stock. Its about time the railways sorted themselves out.

* Before anyone starts an argument, these are my thoughts, not facts. I don't change my mind so don't try to convince me.

[IndustryInsider]

I wouldn't dream of trying to change your mind, but perhaps an acknowledgement that the fares you quoted in the original post were wrong, even if you were only trying to make a point, would be a reasonable thing to do?

[John R]

Dearie me, talk about stirring the abocarte, All im saying is for a lot of people the price of First Class doesn't justify the cost. Most people buy coffee, and the times in shops or well before getting on the train.

Train enthusiasts are always the same though, sticking up for the train company and calling commuters idiots. Its no wonder it takes years before anything gets done to improve the passenger experience. For example most people in standard would like a at seat service because of laptops, luggage and not wanting to lose their seat, yet enthusiast slam it down, and say that a buffet car is needed. Why is it when passengers don't want it. Airline and Bus companies are miles ahead of the railways these days with smart ticketing, comfort, accessibility and age of stock. Its about time the railways sorted themselves out.

* Before anyone starts an argument, these are my thoughts, not facts. I don't change my mind so don't try to convince me.

All I was doing was quoting some examples of how First Class travel can cost a lot less than you quoted, and how for me, it is good value to pay the extra.  I write as someone who has done precisely that for over 8 years - not as a purely theoretical opinion. 

As an aside there are no coffee shops or newsagents between my house and the station, but that is a minor point.

The Forum thrives both on information, and on opinions, the latter being challenged, supported and disputed.  You appear to be overly sensitive to anyone giving a different opinion to yours. That's a shame, as a Forum where we can only agree with posters views would be a very poor Forum indeed.

By the way, what's an abocarte?

[1st fan]

Dearie me, talk about stirring the abocarte, All im saying is for a lot of people the price of First Class doesn't justify the cost. Most people buy coffee, and the times in shops or well before getting on the train.

Train enthusiasts are always the same though, sticking up for the train company and calling commuters idiots. Its no wonder it takes years before anything gets done to improve the passenger experience. For example most people in standard would like a at seat service because of laptops, luggage and not wanting to lose their seat, yet enthusiast slam it down, and say that a buffet car is needed. Why is it when passengers don't want it. Airline and Bus companies are miles ahead of the railways these days with smart ticketing, comfort, accessibility and age of stock. Its about time the railways sorted themselves out.

* Before anyone starts an argument, these are my thoughts, not facts. I don't change my mind so don't try to convince me.

I read the paper in the lounge and have a hot drink/nibbles there but it doesn't mean that I don't want nibbles and a drink on board as well.

[1st fan]

Dearie me, talk about stirring the abocarte, All im saying is for a lot of people the price of First Class doesn't justify the cost. Most people buy coffee, and the times in shops or well before getting on the train.

Train enthusiasts are always the same though, sticking up for the train company and calling commuters idiots. Its no wonder it takes years before anything gets done to improve the passenger experience. For example most people in standard would like a at seat service because of laptops, luggage and not wanting to lose their seat, yet enthusiast slam it down, and say that a buffet car is needed. Why is it when passengers don't want it. Airline and Bus companies are miles ahead of the railways these days with smart ticketing, comfort, accessibility and age of stock. Its about time the railways sorted themselves out.

* Before anyone starts an argument, these are my thoughts, not facts. I don't change my mind so don't try to convince me.

All I was doing was quoting some examples of how First Class travel can cost a lot less than you quoted, and how for me, it is good value to pay the extra.  I write as someone who has done precisely that for over 8 years - not as a purely theoretical opinion. 

As an aside there are no coffee shops or newsagents between my house and the station, but that is a minor point.

The Forum thrives both on information, and on opinions, the latter being challenged, supported and disputed.  You appear to be overly sensitive to anyone giving a different opinion to yours. That's a shame, as a Forum where we can only agree with posters views would be a very poor Forum indeed.

By the way, what's an abocarte?

According to Google Translate it's a Catalan word meaning "Pour you up" to answer your next question not a clue either.

[Rhydgaled]

But I wonder if the low level of business you saw was because few people want the service, or because few people are prepared to risk loosing their seat (and luggage?) at an intermediate station.

That is the other problem with buffet provision (along with the small number of passengers on regional services mentioned in my earlier post); even without an intermediate station I'd be afraid of somebody stealing my luggage (if I left it at my seat) or my seat (if I took my luggage with me and it was a busy service), so going to a buffet car is awkward if travelling alone (if in a group, you can leave somebody to watch your seat(s) and bags).

Maybe on regional express routes the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) should have an account with take-away providers on-route who can deliver some Fish & Chips to the train as required.

Wasn't there publicity about a year ago concerning Pizza delivery to a train when it called at Newport?   May have my timing and station wrong ...

I can't remember the details either, but I suspect that's what gave me the idea.

Who needs to eat hot food on a train? Most don't....

Depends on the journey. After not finding anywhere to eat in Brockenhurst that evening, I now try to restrict my travel plans to arrive by 8pm (so pubs/resturants should be open), but in the rare event that hot food is available on-route it provides the flexibility to start the journey earlier in the morning (eg. when I got the 05:33 Holyhead to Cardiff 'Y Gerallt Gymro' (from Chester onwards) I didn't have to leave time for breakfast before getting on the train) or finish later at night (which for some journeys might perhaps open the possibility of leaving after work or a half-day rather than taking a whole day off to travel). My point is that if the two problems (availablilty on quieter, but still long-distance, routes and protecting your seat/luggage while you order) can be solved the railway could potentially offer more-convienent journey options. I used to point out in this sort of discussion that the competition (cars) have motorway service stations (or similar) on-route where meals are available but they now seem to be going the same way as trains with the resturants taken out in favour of Costa and Starbucks which serve only snacks (much like those available on a railway trolley service).

[ChrisB]

Because most people have realised that earing hot food isn't a daily requirement