The End of First class?

[whole diary]

[ellendune]

No, scrapped completely.

That'll go down a bundle with the core Tory Vote - those that use the trains anyway!

[grahame]

Get rid of first class, and for all train journeys over four hours have a dinning car!

Love it ... but what catering stock would you propose for the 08:59 Brighton to Great Malvern, arrives 14:35 - perhaps the longest GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) journey at 7 hours and 36 minutes.  As a starting point, that's a 3 car 158 and is supposed to remain to even as and when class 165 and / or 166 appear on Cardiff - Portsmouth as clearing Turbos along the coast would be a lot of work for just 2 trains each way per day

Love it....a numerical typo...

0859 to 1435? I make that 5h36....?

Yep, correctly identified as being incorrect in the original post.  Still (one of) the longest runs by GWR time-wise and technically requiring a dining car by the standards suggested.

[grahame]

No, scrapped completely.

That'll go down a bundle with the core Tory Vote - those that use the trains anyway!

And it will be welcomed by those who don't want the intrusive overhead structures through the heritage city of Bath.

Bath has major traffic issues ... not helped by the pulling of three projects for better transport in recent days which would have encouraged people to leave their cars away from the centre and get there in other ways. Pulled are:
* The Park and Ride at Batheaston
* The Cable Car
* Electric Trains

[ChrisB]

Huh? 1st class will still appear in the 800s through Bath.

When did the Chancellor cancel the Swindon-Bath-Bristol electrification?

[paul7575]

No, scrapped completely.

That'll go down a bundle with the core Tory Vote - those that use the trains anyway!

And it will be welcomed by those who don't want the intrusive overhead structures through the heritage city of Bath.

Bath has major traffic issues ... not helped by the pulling of three projects for better transport in recent days which would have encouraged people to leave their cars away from the centre and get there in other ways. Pulled are:
* The Park and Ride at Batheaston
* The Cable Car
* Electric Trains

Completely confused now Grahame.    I think you have replied to a post about first class provision in terms of electrification?

Paul

[Timmer]

And it will be welcomed by those who don't want the intrusive overhead structures through the heritage city of Bath.

Bath has major traffic issues ... not helped by the pulling of three projects for better transport in recent days which would have encouraged people to leave their cars away from the centre and get there in other ways. Pulled are:
* The Park and Ride at Batheaston
* The Cable Car
* Electric Trains

That's backward Bath for you. If you have a good idea that's going to help the chronic traffic problem that Bath has don't bring it to Bath, we don't want it. The only transport 'solutions' that have come to this city in the last ten years are a few trendy bus shelters and making virtually every road in Bath 20mph.

Someone has now come up with a proposal to bring trams back to the city. I wish them all the best.

The cable car, though very left field, would have been an amazing and well used addition to the city. Oh well never mind   

[grahame]

Completely confused now Grahame.    I think you have replied to a post about first class provision in terms of electrification?

Paul

It was a long morning, Paul ... I suspect I did.

[Rhydgaled]

When did the Chancellor cancel the Swindon-Bath-Bristol electrification?

Swindon-Chippenham electrification I believe is going ahead; Chippenham-Bristol-Filton was paused/deferred some time ago and there is still no completion date for that part of project as far as I know so looking unlikely in the next 3-4 years.

Get rid of first class, and for all train journeys over four hours have a dinning car!

But to enjoy a meal, the seats in the dinning car would have to be larger and be at a table. Some people might be willing to pay for this extra space, but might not be hungry.
Perhaps a supplement could be charged for those customers. On some services there might be little demand for meals, but appreciable demand might exist for the extra space and comfort, so everyone in the dining car would have to pay the "dining car (non dining)supplement"

Perhaps this could be called "improved comfort and more legroom class" unless someone can think up a much shorter and more catchy phrase that describes what it is for ?

For a four-hour journey (in fact, any service that goes for longer than an hour without passengers having the opertunity to change onto a faster, more-comfortable, train that overtakes the first), the standard class accomadation should at any rate be better quality than it is at present on many trains (class 175s, some 158s and the mark 2 aircons on the Cumbrian coast are examples of what can and should be done). Yes, the 'dining car' would need to be all tables and the other coaches would have some airline seating, but there are standard class interiors that are perfectly suitable for dining. There are only two possible reasons to retain first class; one is to provide 2+1 (or even 1+1) seating and the other is to generate additional revenue to help cover the costs of running the services.

Get rid of first class, and for all train journeys over four hours have a dinning car!

Love it ... but what catering stock would you propose for the 08:59 Brighton to Great Malvern, arrives 14:35 - perhaps the longest GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) journey at 7 hours and 36 minutes.  As a starting point, that's a 3 car 158 and is supposed to remain to even as and when class 165 and / or 166 appear on Cardiff - Portsmouth as clearing Turbos along the coast would be a lot of work for just 2 trains each way per day

Love it....a numerical typo...

0859 to 1435? I make that 5h36....?

Yep, correctly identified as being incorrect in the original post.  Still (one of) the longest runs by GWR time-wise and technically requiring a dining car by the standards suggested.

This is a difficult problem. Long-distance passengers are likely to need to either start early in the morning (and hence need breakfast on the train) or finish late at night (and need dinner on the train). On busy routes, there will be a concentration of people needing hot food at a similar time on the same train, but unfortunately secondary routes do not carry the volume of passengers needed to make providing meals financially worthwhile (resulting in me being very displeased with only a peice of flapjack before bed when I went to Brokenhurst (using the Cardiff-Portsmouth service, probably changing onto XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise))/SWT^▸ (South West Trains) at Southampton); that's not dinner that's elevenses (or a desert)). Maybe on regional express routes the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) should have an account with take-away providers on-route who can deliver some Fish & Chips to the train as required.

[ChrisB]

When did the Chancellor cancel the Swindon-Bath-Bristol electrification?

Swindon-Chippenham electrification I believe is going ahead; Chippenham-Bristol-Filton was paused/deferred some time ago and there is still no completion date for that part of project as far as I know so looking unlikely in the next 3-4 years.

Your guessing, and need to say so.

It's in the same boat as Oxford-Didcot - currently paused to CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024). We need to await the approval of NR^» (Network Rail - home page)'s CP6 approved works before we know anything more. Not mentioned by the Chancellor this week either.

This is a difficult problem. Long-distance passengers are likely to need to either start early in the morning (and hence need breakfast on the train) or finish late at night (and need dinner on the train). On busy routes, there will be a concentration of people needing hot food at a similar time on the same train, but unfortunately secondary routes do not carry the volume of passengers needed to make providing meals financially worthwhile (resulting in me being very displeased with only a peice of flapjack before bed when I went to Brokenhurst (using the Cardiff-Portsmouth service, probably changing onto XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise))/SWT^▸ (South West Trains) at Southampton); that's not dinner that's elevenses (or a desert)). Maybe on regional express routes the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) should have an account with take-away providers on-route who can deliver some Fish & Chips to the train as required.

Or do whaty the vast majority do - and buy before you board. :-)

[IndustryInsider]

Or do whaty the vast majority do - and buy before you board. :-)

I was on a PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-PLY^» (Plymouth - next trains) HST^▸ (High Speed Train) a week or so ago from Reading to Westbury  - the 11:06 off of PAD I think it was.  Very few seats to be had so I stood with a mate in the buffet area and enjoyed a beer.  In the hour or so I was on board, which could be described as the early lunch period, I think I counted half a dozen other customers - none of which purchased anything that a trolley couldn't have provided.  I'm sure it got a little busier later on, but with that level of custom on a busy train at that time of day, it's becoming clear why GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) don't think they can justify a full buffet.  A big shame.

[grahame]

I was on a PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains)-PLY^» (Plymouth - next trains) HST^▸ (High Speed Train) a week or so ago from Reading to Westbury  - the 11:06 off of PAD I think it was.  Very few seats to be had so I stood with a mate in the buffet area and enjoyed a beer.  In the hour or so I was on board, which could be described as the early lunch period, I think I counted half a dozen other customers - none of which purchased anything that a trolley couldn't have provided.  I'm sure it got a little busier later on, but with that level of custom on a busy train at that time of day, it's becoming clear why GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) don't think they can justify a full buffet.  A big shame.

But I wonder if the low level of business you saw was because few people want the service, or because few people are prepared to risk loosing their seat (and luggage?) at an intermediate station.

Perhaps the metric differ on trains that have predominantly groups rather than individual passengers, and perhaps there's a higher demand on trains that make fewer stops where people could loose their seats of or luggage - so more business for the buffet on a none-stop train from the hamlet of Reading to the hamlet of Taunton, rather than on one that stops at the major passenger exchange and connection point  of Westbury along the way?

Edit - Corrected - "of" to "or" in the text above.   I was reported to the moderator / admin team for appearing to suggest that people had their luggage on seats (which they should not do) and feared it being taken off if they went to the buffet.   My error - a typo - the suggestion is that someone might have taken their seat, or removed their luggage at an intermediate station, if they were in the buffet during a station stop.

[Rhydgaled]

When did the Chancellor cancel the Swindon-Bath-Bristol electrification?

Swindon-Chippenham electrification I believe is going ahead; Chippenham-Bristol-Filton was paused/deferred some time ago and there is still no completion date for that part of project as far as I know so looking unlikely in the next 3-4 years.

Your guessing, and need to say so.

Guessing, yes, but also looking at this, which claims to be the High Level Output Specification for CP6^▸ (Control Period 6 - The five year period between 2019 and 2024) and includes the following: "The Statement does not commit to infrastructure enhancements. These are expected to be dealt with separately." Plus; three years from now is only one year into CP6 (2020), so even if electrification to Bristol is funded 'seperately' I think mine is probably a fairly safe guess given how slowly the wires have rolled out on the GWML^▸ (Great Western Main Line) so far, unless the pace is about to pick up.

This is a difficult problem. Long-distance passengers are likely to need to either start early in the morning (and hence need breakfast on the train) or finish late at night (and need dinner on the train). On busy routes, there will be a concentration of people needing hot food at a similar time on the same train, but unfortunately secondary routes do not carry the volume of passengers needed to make providing meals financially worthwhile (resulting in me being very displeased with only a peice of flapjack before bed when I went to Brokenhurst (using the Cardiff-Portsmouth service, probably changing onto XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise))/SWT^▸ (South West Trains) at Southampton); that's not dinner that's elevenses (or a desert)). Maybe on regional express routes the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) should have an account with take-away providers on-route who can deliver some Fish & Chips to the train as required.

Or do whaty the vast majority do - and buy before you board. :-)

Just how am I supposed to keep my dinner warm until I'm ready to eat it on a 5hr journey? I can't remember where I started my Brockenhurst journey from (it was several years ago), or exactly what time I was travelling, but am fairly sure I arrived there after 9pm; 5hrs earlier would be 4pm.

[ChrisB]

Who needs to eat hot food on a train? Most don't....

[grahame]

Get rid of first class, and for all train journeys over four hours have a dinning car!

Love it ... but what catering stock would you propose for the 08:59 Brighton to Great Malvern, arrives 14:35 - perhaps the longest GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) journey at 7 hours and 36 minutes.  As a starting point, that's a 3 car 158 and is supposed to remain to even as and when class 165 and / or 166 appear on Cardiff - Portsmouth as clearing Turbos along the coast would be a lot of work for just 2 trains each way per day

Love it....a numerical typo...

0859 to 1435? I make that 5h36....?

Yep, correctly identified as being incorrect in the original post.  Still (one of) the longest runs by GWR time-wise and technically requiring a dining car by the standards suggested.

This is a difficult problem. Long-distance passengers are likely to need to either start early in the morning (and hence need breakfast on the train) or finish late at night (and need dinner on the train). On busy routes, there will be a concentration of people needing hot food at a similar time on the same train, but unfortunately secondary routes do not carry the volume of passengers needed to make providing meals financially worthwhile (resulting in me being very displeased with only a peice of flapjack before bed when I went to Brokenhurst (using the Cardiff-Portsmouth service, probably changing onto XC^▸ (Cross Country Trains (franchise))/SWT^▸ (South West Trains) at Southampton); that's not dinner that's elevenses (or a desert)). Maybe on regional express routes the TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) should have an account with take-away providers on-route who can deliver some Fish & Chips to the train as required.

No catering at all today.  As catering is normally a trolley, not sure how that gets canned when more trains need repairs at the same time ...

08:59 Brighton to Great Malvern due 14:35
Facilities on the 08:59 Brighton to Great Malvern due 14:35.
Catering is not available. There are no reservations on this service.
This is due to more trains than usual needing repairs at the same time.

Wasn't there publicity about a year ago concerning Pizza delivery to a train when it called at Newport?   May have my timing and station wrong ...

Best bet, frankly, on the long stragily cross country runs is to self cater and take something to do. I do know someone who made a 5 hour journey on this train but he tells me of major changes to the people on board all along,  confirming that through traffic sometimes gets drowned out by the shorter trips.

[ChrisB]

Catering seems to always removed when a 2car substitutes the 3car - I was wondering whether the door/corridor width was the problem? Are these trains disabled-accessible?