The End of First class?

[whole diary]

[TaplowGreen]

I know this has largely already happened on all but the longer routes on GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), and drastically reduced even on those, but this perhaps points to an overall single class direction of travel for the future

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40690621

[didcotdean]

As I have said before, as soon as MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) and Whitehall civil servants could no longer routinely claim first class rail travel its days were numbered.

[simonw]

Get rid of first class, and for all train journeys over four hours have a dinning car!

[broadgage]

Regrettable in my view if first class is withdrawn from longer distance services. The present proposal only refers to relatively short distance commuter services, but I fear that this may be the  "thin end of the wedge"
Many outer suburban stations such as Reading or Woking are the first stop for express trains from London and therefore have first class services.

First class has been significantly reduced on the existing HST^▸ (High Speed Train) fleet, and it was implied that this was a short term measure to address a short term lack of capacity until the new DMUs^▸ (Diesel Multiple Unit) arrive.
Arrival of said DMUs is now imminent, and first class provision has been further reduced.

The rot started when members of parliament were stopped from using first class at the public expense. I bet if MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) were allowed to use first it would again become an "important facility for the business traveller, vital as part of a strategy  to attract investment and jobs into the regions"

Politicians have only started calling for the abolition/reduction of first class after they were stopped from using it for free.

[grahame]

Get rid of first class, and for all train journeys over four hours have a dinning car!

Love it ... but what catering stock would you propose for the 08:59 Brighton to Great Malvern, arrives 14:35 - perhaps the longest GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) journey at 7 hours and 36 minutes.  As a starting point, that's a 3 car 158 and is supposed to remain to even as and when class 165 and / or 166 appear on Cardiff - Portsmouth as clearing Turbos along the coast would be a lot of work for just 2 trains each way per day

[NickB]

Either scrap it completely or point out that anyone can buy a first class ticket - it's not a birth right. Fiddling around with the proportions of standard vs first just annoys both sides of the vestibule - if there is a single first class seat remaining then someone standing in standard will claim it is a class war, and if you squeeze first further then those who have paid for the service will not be able to get a seat in first class.

I believe that removing it completely is the only way forwards now. Equally the populist bleating of Alok Sharma and now Grayling gets my goat. I was a standard class customer who didn't like standing everyday on my commute. So do you know what I did?  I put my hand in my pocket and paid for the upgrade - just like anyone else can if they feel that strongly about it. I pay £2 extra per day for a seat (with reservation), a coffee, croissant and a paper to read. It was worth every penny. What isn't worth it is the sad fact that since Alok convinced FGW^▸ (First Great Western) to squash First into 1.5 carriages I can't get a seat without a reservation, the catering has disappeared and the TM^‡(resolve) never visits to check tickets thereby passively declassifiying the carriages. It is no longer worth it and that is GWRs^▸ (Great Western Railway) loss. So, if you can't support it then please scrap it completely.

[TaplowGreen]

As I have said before, as soon as MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) and Whitehall civil servants could no longer routinely claim first class rail travel its days were numbered.

Have you got any evidence for that? I worked in Whitehall over 20 years ago and we certainly weren't allowed to travel 1st class unless in extremely specific circumstances even then.

[paul7575]

 As a starting point, that's a 3 car 158 and is supposed to remain to even as and when class 165 and / or 166 appear on Cardiff - Portsmouth as clearing Turbos along the coast would be a lot of work for just 2 trains each way per day

However, the gauge clearance project for 165/166 still included Brighton as of Dec 2016, and was reprinted as such in the Jun 2017 enhancements milestones.

Paul

[broadgage]

Get rid of first class, and for all train journeys over four hours have a dinning car!

But to enjoy a meal, the seats in the dinning car would have to be larger and be at a table. Some people might be willing to pay for this extra space, but might not be hungry.
Perhaps a supplement could be charged for those customers. On some services there might be little demand for meals, but appreciable demand might exist for the extra space and comfort, so everyone in the dining car would have to pay the "dining car (non dining)supplement"

Perhaps this could be called "improved comfort and more legroom class" unless someone can think up a much shorter and more catchy phrase that describes what it is for ?

[didcotdean]

As I have said before, as soon as MPs^▸ (Member of Parliament) and Whitehall civil servants could no longer routinely claim first class rail travel its days were numbered.

Have you got any evidence for that? I worked in Whitehall over 20 years ago and we certainly weren't allowed to travel 1st class unless in extremely specific circumstances even then.

Whereas I recall a few years later than that having specifically to request a standard class ticket, which I usually did for short / medium journeys, otherwise I would be supplied with a first class one by default. I was considered somewhat eccentric for doing this too as hardly any of my colleagues did. It was almost as if it was an accepted subsidy to the railway.

Maybe it depended on the specific department and grade. I think general practice changed though not long afterwards and somewhat later for MPs.

[ChrisB]

Get rid of first class, and for all train journeys over four hours have a dinning car!

Love it ... but what catering stock would you propose for the 08:59 Brighton to Great Malvern, arrives 14:35 - perhaps the longest GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) journey at 7 hours and 36 minutes.  As a starting point, that's a 3 car 158 and is supposed to remain to even as and when class 165 and / or 166 appear on Cardiff - Portsmouth as clearing Turbos along the coast would be a lot of work for just 2 trains each way per day

Love it....a numerical typo...

0859 to 1435? I make that 5h36....?

[stuving]

All of the above has nothing to do with the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) news item!

This is the direct quote bit:

In an interview with the Daily Telegraph, Mr Grayling said he was "absolutely" committed to scrapping first class carriages on shorter, commuter routes, at busy times of the day, and wanted train operators to take action if passengers demanded it.

"I absolutely understand what a total pain it is if you are standing on a train for 20 to 30 minutes on the way to work," he told the paper.

"I don't really see a case for a non-long distance journey for there to be any division between first and second class. There should just be one class on the train."

"People will see less first class in the future as we start to say that on busy suburban trains you can't start segregating," he added.

Now I can't be sure if it meant to say "shorter, commuter routes" or "shorter commuter routes" - and it does make a difference - but it makes more sense with no comma. So we are only talking about inner suburban stock, and a lot of that (I suspect most  of it) has no first anyway.

Even if it meant outer suburban too, and you'd need to define that of course, it would no be such a bigchange. After all, new Crossrail and similar through-cabin stock is standard only and is going quite a long way out - with the exception of the Thameslink 700s, which are being built with a first class bit. Class 387s are standard only, and they are certainly outer suburban trains.

So this may well be either minister and journalist exchanging ignorance, or (more likely) spin being applied to a negligible bit of new policy.

And did he really mean that whatever first class was scrapped would magically reappear outside busy times of day?

[ChrisB]

No, scrapped completely.

TV has been showing Southeastern & Southern longer distance commuter stock today...but both those are identical seating to Standard class anyway...so simply removing the yellow stripe & decals will suffice.

So the turbos declassified. Do the 158s on GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) have 1st class?

[stuving]

No, scrapped completely.

How do you know? Do have direct access to the inside of the Grayling brain? Scary!

Or perhaps it was in the original Telegraph piece. The free bit they put on-line was a little different from the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page)'s text:

First class compartments will disappear from crowded commuter trains, the Transport Secretary has pledged, as he said passengers should no longer be “segregated”.

Chris Grayling, who commutes by train to Whitehall every day, told The Daily Telegraph he understands what a “total pain” it is for passengers who have to stand in packed standard class carriages while first class compartments are empty.

He said he is “absolutely” committed to scrapping first class on commuter trains and expects to see fewer first class carriages on intercity services over the next few years.

So that does refer to long distance trains, though I guess we all expect to see less first class there without any action by DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) - and were surprised by how much first there was in the IEPs^▸ (Intercity Express Program / Project.), for example.

[ChrisB]

I understand it'll be done in ITTs^▸ (Invitation to Tender) in new franchise offers