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Author Topic: Railway electrification - ongoing (sometimes very!) technical discussion  (Read 15873 times)
Red Squirrel
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« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2017, 16:59:46 »


intermittently and unreliably...


Really? Really?

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« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2017, 21:12:18 »

Theoretically Network Rail is 100% nuclear or renewables .............. at least that is the contract NR» (Network Rail - home page) has with its energy supplier  Grin but it is difficult to filter nuclear derived electrons from coal or gas derived electrons when the come streaming out of the end of a high "pressure" cable  Grin Grin 
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Starship just experienced what we call a rapid unscheduled disassembly, or a RUD, during ascent,”
ellendune
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« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2017, 21:35:49 »

Theoretically Network Rail is 100% nuclear or renewables .............. at least that is the contract NR» (Network Rail - home page) has with its energy supplier  Grin but it is difficult to filter nuclear derived electrons from coal or gas derived electrons when the come streaming out of the end of a high "pressure" cable  Grin Grin 

But if people only bought from suppliers of wind and nuclear in the end there would only be wind and nuclear suppliers - though the grid would then have to buy in organisations with systems (batteries or pumped storage?) to balance the load.
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didcotdean
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« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2017, 21:39:48 »

About 1GW of electricity most of the time from the Netherlands comes through the BritNed interconnector into the National Grid representing a wind power surplus. Although through the last couple of months due to some power station outages in France, a similar amount has unusually been routed back there. Normally the output roughly equivalent to 2 of the 6 reactors at Gravalines is b(r)ought across the channel.
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TonyK
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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2017, 09:06:41 »

Really? Really?

Really, really. Wind is, as we speak on this blustery day, providing some 13.1% of our electricity (coal 15.5%, nuclear 15.7%, and gas 44.6%, all according to Gridwatch. Over the past few days, wind has provided under 2% at times.
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didcotdean
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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2017, 09:39:32 »

Over the past few days, wind has provided under 2% at times.
And as much as 20% at times yesterday, not including the Dutch import. Not much solar though at this time of the year ...
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Red Squirrel
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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2017, 14:39:01 »

Really? Really?

Really, really. Wind is, as we speak on this blustery day, providing some 13.1% of our electricity (coal 15.5%, nuclear 15.7%, and gas 44.6%, all according to Gridwatch. Over the past few days, wind has provided under 2% at times.

For a moment I was starting to think FT, N stood for 'For Trump, Now!'

I presume when you say 'unreliable' you are referring to the wind, not the turbines; the turbines are anything but unreliable.

With the efforts now going into Enhanced Frequency Response, plus the massive increase in battery production that will shortly come online, large capacity grid energy storage starts to look like a serious player. Which means that highly-efficient WTs can work all the time there's a wind, either powering the grid or charging batteries. 
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TonyK
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« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2017, 16:21:36 »


For a moment I was starting to think FT, N stood for 'For Trump, Now!'

You can tell us apart by our hairstyles. And those Russian hotel pictures - those could have been anyone's buttocks, and anyway I only met Ljudmila the once.

Quote
I presume when you say 'unreliable' you are referring to the wind, not the turbines; the turbines are anything but unreliable.

With the efforts now going into Enhanced Frequency Response, plus the massive increase in battery production that will shortly come online, large capacity grid energy storage starts to look like a serious player. Which means that highly-efficient WTs can work all the time there's a wind, either powering the grid or charging batteries. 


Indeed, the wind is unreliable, and sometimes so absent that wind turbines become net consumers of electricity. Developing batteries to store excess power for its own sake, so other than in electric vehicles, is at present a nonsensical idea. Even when wind is providing its highest proportion of the electricity mix, it never produces a surplus. The practical effect is that we can turn down the gas on the CCGT (Combined Cycle Gas Turbine) stations. When we have a base load from some non-fossil source to cover the minimum electricity we use, then wind may tip the balance into surplus, but by then we will hopefully be running much more of our rail fleet on electricity, and will have a lot more electric cars. Of course, that will increase the amount of electricity consumed, changing the equation yet again.

Meantime, coal has made a sudden comeback, rising from almost zero not long ago to 17% today - someone has turned a few stations back on! They take time to get to working speed, and are generally run flat-out if possible. If we were to store excess power, it would be better to do that at coal stations rather than either dumping the suddenly unwanted hot water in the cooling towers or running the turbines without generating power. That coal is back tells me that we certainly don't have the generating capacity we need now, without considering electrifying public and private transport on a bigger scale.

Now, if trains can be run on solar power, and you need somewhere to put the panels, why not on the train roof? It is connected to the power supply, and power is already returned to the system in regenerative braking? No train would ever be able to power itself, not even on the sunniest day, but on the basis that "every little helps" could it work?

FTR (Fitness To Run), FT, N! awaits the outcome of the proposal to build a tidal lagoon somewhere near Swansea with interest. So long as this doesn't solve one problem but cause two more, it could be a goer on a national scale. We know with remarkable accuracy what the tide will be doing there at any given time within the next 100 years, and the energy density of water is higher than that of wind.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 18:02:02 by Four Track, Now! » Logged

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« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2017, 22:37:34 »

Theoretically Network Rail is 100% nuclear or renewables .............. at least that is the contract NR» (Network Rail - home page) has with its energy supplier  Grin but it is difficult to filter nuclear derived electrons from coal or gas derived electrons when the come streaming out of the end of a high "pressure" cable  Grin Grin 

But if people only bought from suppliers of wind and nuclear in the end there would only be wind and nuclear suppliers - though the grid would then have to buy in organisations with systems (batteries or pumped storage?) to balance the load.

About 1GW of electricity most of the time from the Netherlands comes through the BritNed interconnector into the National Grid representing a wind power surplus. Although through the last couple of months due to some power station outages in France, a similar amount has unusually been routed back there. Normally the output roughly equivalent to 2 of the 6 reactors at Gravalines is b(r)ought across the channel.


The problem with wind, solar and the interconnectors into Europe is they lack inertia that a steam (or hydro) driven turbine genset has, NGC has some problem with sync, power factor and fault recovery times on the supper grid 
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Chris from Nailsea
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« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2017, 00:47:54 »

... on the supper grid 

Here is a picture of a 'supper grid' (also known as a 'toast rack'):



CfN  Wink Cheesy Grin

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William Huskisson MP (Member of Parliament) was the first person to be killed by a train while crossing the tracks, in 1830.  Many more have died in the same way since then.  Don't take a chance: stop, look, listen.

"Level crossings are safe, unless they are used in an unsafe manner."  Discuss.
TonyK
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« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2017, 09:01:16 »

Funnily enough, I had toast for my supper,  with cheese. It was super!
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« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2017, 15:57:52 »

... on the supper grid 

Here is a picture of a 'supper grid' (also known as a 'toast rack'):



CfN  Wink Cheesy Grin


Looks like it's seen better days - isn't there a bit missing?
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Fourbee
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« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2017, 16:18:24 »

The key here are the faces Wink Cheesy Grin CfN has put. It is the coffee shop equivalent of an in joke.

I think one of the media outlets kept using this broken TPWS (Train Protection and Warning System) grid to illustrate pretty much any train related article  Cheesy
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« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2017, 16:59:40 »

The key here are the faces Wink Cheesy Grin CfN has put. It is the coffee shop equivalent of an in joke.

I think one of the media outlets kept using this broken TPWS (Train Protection and Warning System) grid to illustrate pretty much any train related article  Cheesy
Yes, it can be found in several places in this (currently) 33 page long thread Cheesy http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=11558.0

....and after nearly four years it still hasn't been repaired... Roll Eyes Tongue
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ellendune
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« Reply #44 on: January 14, 2017, 19:33:48 »

Nuclear power stations in the UK (United Kingdom) are normally sited close to the sea or in one case to a large lake to provide a lot of cooling water.  The one by the lake did end up heating up the lake more than was desired sometimes.

I know they have inland nuclear stations on the contents I assume this is possible because they have bigger rivers.
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