First / MTR win South Western franchise 2017 - 2024, and CMA raises competition concerns (merged topic)

[whole diary]

[paul7575]

The main frequency changes to 4 tph on the Reading and Windsor services don't start till Dec 18, according to the franchise train service specification...

AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) the timetable from handover in August until the end of next year will be as it is in May except for the part blockade in August while they rebuild platforms 1-8.

Paul

[stuving]

The main frequency changes to 4 tph on the Reading and Windsor services don't start till Dec 18, according to the franchise train service specification...

AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) the timetable from handover in August until the end of next year will be as it is in May except for the part blockade in August while they rebuild platforms 1-8.
Paul

The whole SLC^▸ (Service Level Commitment) timetable is December 2018. I'd thought the 4tph Reading service was expected to start earlier, but on reflection that might have been wishful thinking.

But if a new fleet is ordered now, it would still presumably be about three years until it's all in service (the 707s were ordered in September 2014). And as it's at minimum a seven-year franchise, you would be almost halfway through it by then.

[stuving]

From the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page):

This is the news item from South Today, which I was going on about yesterday, or at least contains its punchlines.

New trains 'dumped' by South Western franchise winner
By Paul Clifton Transport correspondent, BBC South Today
    30 March 2017

A rail operator is to abandon trains costing £200m which are currently being built in Germany.

First MTR, which was awarded the South Western franchise on Monday, is committed to a fleet of 90 Siemens trains to increase capacity on the Reading, Windsor and London routes.

It will, however, reject 150 carriages which were ordered in 2014.

Instead, the operator is commissioning further new trains to replace them on a cheaper annual lease.

The German trains will enter service in April and can carry an extra 8,000 commuters each day.

The substituted cheaper carriages will arrive from 2019.

At the same time, newly-refurbished carriages which currently run to Reading are being dumped, together with other suburban rolling stock which is currently in the middle of a full technical rebuild.

Analysis: Paul Clifton, BBC South transport correspondent

It's a bit like walking into a car showroom, and being offered a brand new car from the factory for less money than the identical demonstrator that is already sitting in front of you ready to go.

The bottom line: hundreds of carriages worth hundreds of millions of pounds are simply being dumped.

The cost of borrowing has tumbled, new manufacturers are competing for orders and production lines are already set up.

That makes a new train cheaper even than one that is right now half-built.

Who pays for the ones that are left behind?

Ultimately we all do, through the fares we pay.

The new and refurbished carriages, which can only be used on southern England's third rail system, are destined to sit on sidings indefinitely.

First MTR, a partnership between First Group and Hong Kong metro firm MTR, said it could not yet be interviewed due to a non-disclosure agreement.

It will take over the seven-year franchise from Stagecoach on 20 August.

The Department for Transport said: "First MTR has committed to deliver 750 new carriages by the end of 2020 which will offer more space and improve journeys for passengers on the Windsor, Reading and London suburban routes.

"It is for First MTR South Western to decide how it uses its trains."

[ChrisB]

Looks as though the ROSCO^» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) has made  boo-boo, unless they have found a new TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) to take them?

[4064ReadingAbbey]

SWT^▸ (South West Trains) does indeed have some impressive reliability stats.  What they've done with their 15x is very impressive.  It's fair to say that the reliability stats do fluctuate wildly between data releases, especially within the diesel fleets.

Sorry to keep harping on about this subject! Yes, the statistics can vary from period to period quite considerably so this is the reason the Moving Annual Average is used - to iron out the short term variations. Also small fleets show greater swings as the effect of one or two failures in each period is more pronounced.

However looking back over the last few years, SWT is consistently ahead of the other TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) in the matter of engineering failures. This shows consistent attention to detail.

I just hope that First/MTR put as much effort into train reliability as Stagecoach has done on SWT.

[TonyK]

Looks as though the ROSCO^» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) has made  boo-boo, unless they have found a new TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) to take them?

Another TOC with third rail electrification? This could be the start of a fight-back against the leasing companies.

[ellendune]

Looks as though the ROSCO^» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) has made  boo-boo, unless they have found a new TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) to take them?

Another TOC with third rail electrification? This could be the start of a fight-back against the leasing companies.

Does it have to be another TOC with third rail electrification.  Are these units convertible to 25kV?

[grahame]

Looks as though the ROSCO^» (Rolling Stock Owning Company - about) has made  boo-boo, unless they have found a new TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) to take them?

Another TOC with third rail electrification? This could be the start of a fight-back against the leasing companies.

Does it have to be another TOC with third rail electrification.  Are these units convertible to 25kV?

Merseyrail is also 3rd rail, but have already ordered a new fleet as I recall?

At the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) / ACoRP^▸ (Association of Community Rail Partnerships) meeting the week before last, Brian Freemantle (Head of Rolling Stock Policy & Contracts, Rail Executive, Passenger Services at Department for Transport.) took us through stock allocation policy and what is expected of bidders and the cascading metrics in theoretic but not specific terms.  As an educated guess, there's going to be a plan somewhere to use the 707s in the future. 

[Surrey 455]

I'm hoping / expecting that First MTR will honour the Gold Service vouchers sent out to SWT^▸ (South West Trains) season ticket holders. These are one day tickets that can be used anywhere on the SWT network on Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays. I've made the most out of them over the last few years with day trips from Bookham to the South West, often exploring 2 or 3 towns in one day and sometimes using local buses to fill in the gaps between towns.

Although they can be used all year round, I prefer to save them for the summer when the weather is warmer and there are more daylight hours. I will still have quite a few when First take over.

[TonyK]

Merseyrail is also 3rd rail, but have already ordered a new fleet as I recall?

At the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) / ACoRP^▸ (Association of Community Rail Partnerships) meeting the week before last, Brian Freemantle (Head of Rolling Stock Policy & Contracts, Rail Executive, Passenger Services at Department for Transport.) took us through stock allocation policy and what is expected of bidders and the cascading metrics in theoretic but not specific terms.  As an educated guess, there's going to be a plan somewhere to use the 707s in the future. 

Merseyrail has indeed got new kit on order, prompting calls of outrage from the unions. As for DfT, it's about time there was a plan. This story illustrates the wastefulness of the current system.

[paul7575]

Does it have to be another TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) with third rail electrification.  Are these units convertible to 25kV?

They are AC units like all modern EMUs^▸ (Electric Multiple Unit), and two of them are fully fitted with pantograph and transformer etc, and they have already visited Hornsey via the Thameslink route as part of first of class trials.

Making them run off AC is very straightforward, the recent BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page) piece was quite misleading about this point.

Paul

[TonyK]

But who will want to use them when they can get the same for less money?

[chrisr_75]

Instead, the operator is commissioning further new trains to replace them on a cheaper annual lease.

I wonder if the operator will pass these savings on to its customers or just pocket the difference? Hmmm...

[ChrisB]

Dividing sums saved by £s in farebox might give you a 1p discount

[paul7575]

But who will want to use them when they can get the same for less money?

AFAICT^▸ (as far as I can tell) it's only widespread posts in forums that are making the cost assumption so far.  What if the new trains cost about the same but have more doors and less seats - to meet the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)'s push for shorter dwell times?

Paul