Poll: Which stock is the best for long distance travel? 2 votes each!

[whole diary]

[Doctor Gideon Ceefax]

I don't see electrical cupboards taking up loads of room on other trains, other than pendolinos (which suffer from the things rattling away in first) and voyagers. 170s another modern unit don't seem to need as much wasted space with kit. Given the non passenger carrying space needed at the extreme ends to allow 125mph running with passengers in the lead vehicle, it would have made sense to shove all this equipment in there. Of course in the HST^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) design, such equipment is in the power cars anyway.

Overcrowding depends really on the route on Voyagers and the time on Great Western HSTs. In and out of London is always going to be packed in the peaks on the HSTs, but I've hardly ever seen free seats on Voyagers operating the Bournemouth or Scottish routes, regardless of time of day (except very early in the morning). Overcrowding on the refreshed HSTs doesn't seem that bad, it's mainly the Reading to London area where it gets silly.

On HSTs you can prop up the buffet car if you need to stand, on Voyagers this is largely impossible as you will be continually in someones way. Because of the tapered bodysides, standing in the vestibules on the thing is actually more uncomfortable than the HST. In summer you can pull the HST window down and rest your arm on the droplight, if standing is necessary. Standing on any train isn't pleasant mind you.

The Voyager design seems like it was done on the cheap with no real thought going into it. The one thing in their favour is that they are generally quite reliable in my experience, I've not experienced them failing at all, and the acceleration means they have a better chance of making up time. Personally though, I do avoid the things unless I have no choice.

I do wonder how much of the problem is due to the interior design when specified by Virgin, I find pendolinos crap for all the same reasons.

[devon_metro]

I find Voyagers fine for long distance just as long as they're not crowded. They're speedy and fairly quiet, nice big clean windows to look out of too (probably the best windows out of all, I'd say). I'm also 6 ft and don't have any issues regarding legroom... Can be a little bumpy when going over points, but I really enjoy going on them.

I like HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) too, but I have to say I preferred them before the refurb. I'd also happily be on a class 158 for long distance if it wasn't too busy (and especially if it wasn't a tatty old alphaline one!), same with a 159.

Thats one of the things that annoys me on Voyagers - the limited amout of seats with a 'full' window and anyhow the windows are small and there is far too much wall. Also irritating to see that my luggage in the luggage rack can enjoy the view more than me 

[Shazz]

I find Voyagers fine for long distance just as long as they're not crowded. They're speedy and fairly quiet, nice big clean windows to look out of too (probably the best windows out of all, I'd say). I'm also 6 ft and don't have any issues regarding legroom... Can be a little bumpy when going over points, but I really enjoy going on them.

I like HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) too, but I have to say I preferred them before the refurb. I'd also happily be on a class 158 for long distance if it wasn't too busy (and especially if it wasn't a tatty old alphaline one!), same with a 159.

Thats one of the things that annoys me on Voyagers - the limited amout of seats with a 'full' window and anyhow the windows are small and there is far too much wall. Also irritating to see that my luggage in the luggage rack can enjoy the view more than me 

Yes but thats all in the interest of safety. Take the grayrigg derailment, (pendolinos have roughly the same window spacing as voyagers iirc) 1 person died, and the train was still completely useable once it had been re-railed and some bodywork replaced, and it was given a full service. Then take upton nevet. 7 peiople died, and the mk3's were almost all a complete write off.

I think i'd much rather be on a safer train that 1 that i "have a window seat" on...

[devon_metro]

Very true although the circumstances of the two crashes are completly different.

At Ufton Nevet the train derailed after it hit the idiot on the LC^▸ (Level Crossing) and then encountered a set of points further derailing it. The only carriage massivly damanged was the buffet car.

Yes the Pendolino is safer, but what progress has been made?

Loss of loads of window space whilst the Mk3 is still very structurally sound. I'd rather have a window as its not everyday your train crashes!!

[Shazz]

Very true although the circumstances of the two crashes are completly different.

At Ufton Nevet the train derailed after it hit the idiot on the LC^▸ (Level Crossing) and then encountered a set of points further derailing it. The only carriage massivly damanged was the buffet car.

Yes the Pendolino is safer, but what progress has been made?

Loss of loads of window space whilst the Mk3 is still very structurally sound. I'd rather have a window as its not everyday your train crashes!!

Yes, but it's a "what if" situation. And i belive the majority of commuters would want a structurally sound, and incredibly safe voyager/pend over an mk3 if they knew the "difference"

I know which one i'd rather have...

[Doctor Gideon Ceefax]

I find Voyagers fine for long distance just as long as they're not crowded. They're speedy and fairly quiet, nice big clean windows to look out of too (probably the best windows out of all, I'd say). I'm also 6 ft and don't have any issues regarding legroom... Can be a little bumpy when going over points, but I really enjoy going on them.

I like HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) too, but I have to say I preferred them before the refurb. I'd also happily be on a class 158 for long distance if it wasn't too busy (and especially if it wasn't a tatty old alphaline one!), same with a 159.

Thats one of the things that annoys me on Voyagers - the limited amout of seats with a 'full' window and anyhow the windows are small and there is far too much wall. Also irritating to see that my luggage in the luggage rack can enjoy the view more than me 

Yes but thats all in the interest of safety. Take the grayrigg derailment, (pendolinos have roughly the same window spacing as voyagers iirc) 1 person died, and the train was still completely useable once it had been re-railed and some bodywork replaced, and it was given a full service. Then take upton nevet. 7 peiople died, and the mk3's were almost all a complete write off.

I think i'd much rather be on a safer train that 1 that i "have a window seat" on...

No idea about voyagers, although I'd agree with you that the pendolino is quite clearly a very very safe train and proved itself well. However the set 390033, "City of Glasgow" was written off on 30 November 2007 and Virgin are currently using a loco + DVT^▸ (Driving Van Trailer (carriage) or Deep Vein Thrombosis, depending on context) set in its place.

The trailing power car was to my knowledge the only vehicle not scrapped in the Ufton Nervet crash.

[dog box]

There is absolutely no way you can even start to compare the crash worthiness of a voyager to a mk3 or any ex Br stock for that matter.
Any person with half a brain would expect a new build train to be constructed to  a higher safety standard than one that is 30 yrs old. because of course standards have moved on.
The Grayrigg and Ufton incidents were totally different and such comparisions are therefore meaningless.
Take a look at the photos of the 142 which was involved in an accident a few years ago and then start worrying what if.

[Doctor Gideon Ceefax]

Putting it into perspective, the Mark III's are still very safe. The death toll on the train in Ufton Nervet was 6 (including the driver). In Paddington the vast majority of deaths were on the Thames unit. In Southall the driver survived and 7 were killed.

All train crashes are awful things, though I'd have to admit I'd feel safer in a Mark III coach rather than any sort of diesel multiple unit, mainly because I'm not going to be riding under the fuel tanks (unless they put seats in the power cars!!), and plus there is a large engine at the front to theoretically take most of the force.

Incidentally the Winsford crash in 1997 involved Mark III coaching stock and an electric loco against an empty stock pacer. No deaths and a few minor injuries, the 87 remained largely unscathed other than being ripped off its bogies. The rear carriage of the pacer was virtually demolished.

Just remember, you're statistically far more likely to come to harm driving to the station or being assaulted by some aggresive piece of human sewage on the station or train anyway.

[eightf48544]

If you really want a train then a DB^» (Deutsche Bahn - German State Railway - about) ICE 2 both first and second is excellent.

Also standing behind the driver in a DB IC^▸ (Inter City) DVT^▸ (Driving Van Trailer (carriage) or Deep Vein Thrombosis, depending on context) when leading and watch it weaving in out of freight trains between Hanover and Magdeburg.

Also watch how the driver resets his computer to run on parts of the line equiped with LZB signalling (DB cab signalling for high speed lines) this allows ICs to run at 220 Kmh rather than 160 on conventially signalled lines.

[Btline]

Just made a return journey (Worcs to Oxford).

Down on an HST^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) 2+8 fully refurbed.

Smooth, but VERY NOISEY on board!!!!!!!! Conformable seats with plenty of legroom. Shame the seat back is high, but this is safety.

Buffet area nice. Windows on external doors have not been refurbed clearly!

Back up on a 180 Adelante.

Train got later and later as it can't accelerate- no we did not get stuck at any stops for any length of time!

Very quiet, but lots of vibrations and rattling.

Buffet more cramped. Seats more conformable HST.

Train was early at every station, despite a short delay at Morton (not a passing train, but loading)- need I say no more!

About the Virgin stock:

The only reason 1 person died onboard that Virgin Train is because it was very empty (late evening service, past Preston). If it had been a typical Virgin service (or a Voyager on any service) at rush hour near Birmingham, with people crushed in the vestibules etc., then goodness knows how many people would have died!!!!!!!!

In conclusion:

*Refurb HST was good inside. If the train had only been stopping 3/4 times rather than 8 times (i.e. InterCity!) then it would have been perfect for the job. Why have they put high density sets on the Cotswold Line?

*Adelante was good as it stayed on time!

*Voyagers are rubbish- end of story! They are cramped, smell, have not enough seats, have not enough luggage space, have pathetic overhead racks, have slow opening and closing doors, are noisy, have vibrations/rattles, have too many toilets, have too many disabled toilets, have poor legroom, squeaky fold down tables, have not enough seats alined with the windows, have luggage racks aligned with the windows (!), are noisier in the Quiet Zone than in the normal carriages, need I go on?

[devon_metro]

 Why have they put high density sets on the Cotswold Line?

Because LD sets should be going down to Penzance.

[Timmer]

*Voyagers are rubbish- end of story! They are cramped, smell, have not enough seats, have not enough luggage space, have pathetic overhead racks, have slow opening and closing doors, are noisy, have vibrations/rattles, have too many toilets, have too many disabled toilets, have poor legroom, squeaky fold down tables, have not enough seats alined with the windows, have luggage racks aligned with the windows (!), are noisier in the Quiet Zone than in the normal carriages, need I go on?

I agree that Voyagers are a real let down and were a missed opportunity to come up with some decent rolling stock for Cross Country. You say that they have too many toilets. Are you sure about that? I don't think they have enough for a four car train...There should be at least 1 toilet per carriage. HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units)) have plenty of toilets, well they did until FGW^▸ (First Great Western) closed two of them, one at each end for the new trolley service.

[dog box]

problem is with voyager toilets is someone decided each and every one had to be a disabled toilet which takes up a good percentage of the train, and of course the smell.
just wonder what voyagers will be like when they are old as an HST^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units))...i know you like them Shazz but as a matter of interest how often do you travel on them?
With me its quite often, and after a few days they do start to grind you down somewhat

[Conner]

 Why have they put high density sets on the Cotswold Line?

Because LD sets should be going down to Penzance.

I will beleive that when I see it.
Both morning leisure HST^▸ (High Speed Train (Inter City class 43 125 units))'s today going to Padington were HD with un refur buffet.
HD sets are the norm on most HST's.

[devon_metro]

I never really bother checking as I don't care about table seats. Was on an LD from Bath - Bristol the other week though and treated myself to a table in coach A.