Incomplete Oyster journeys cost commuters over £53 million last year

[whole diary]

[Tim]

I would suggest that the non-refunded monies may be from unregistered Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services)/payment cards, people who are either oblivious or don't care about their balance or some kind of dubious practice going on which would be uncovered should a refund be requested, or any combination of the 3.

occasional users and perhaps tourists and foreign visitors would be more likely to have unregistered cards and be more likely to understand the necessity to touch both in and out. 

[TaplowGreen]

So it's either deliberate, or self-forgetfullness that's the cause here. I also suspect most know of the penalty, although its possible a few haven't bothered to find out/read the T&Cs

Why we're supposed to feel (from articles like this one) that they've been hard done by, I'm unsure. There is the ability to request refunds however, and at over £7 a pop, I'm again pretty sure most do.

So the majority of this money is actually fines from those who know to tap in/out, but choose not to. It's hard to find sympathy, IMO^▸ (in my opinion)

.....you can evidence all those assertions of course, or cite the relevant data to demonstrate its accuracy? 

Are we not allowed to post opinion on the forum any more without hard data to substantiate it?   

Fair enough, perhaps I was a little harsh and if so I apologise for any offence taken - personally however with my background I like to have something concrete to back up my opinions, especially if I am accusing a large number of people of something illegal/dishonest.

Anyway, must fly, I'm off for a dumbelling session, still need to get back into shape after Christmas........

[didcotdean]

TfL^» (Transport for London - about) is also sitting on a mountain of cash from Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) cards that have not been used for a long time, some over more than 10 years. This may seem to be good but can become an operational inconvenience having to account for it etc. I sometimes get the feeling they would like to be out of the 'ticket selling' game altogether.

[ChrisB]

This is certainly why they are pushing Contactless in favour of Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services)

[didcotdean]

I just googled for dumbelling (thankfully on my phone, not my work PC - there are a number of different definitions shall we say...!) and I don't think this is what is going with the example from the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter).

The original article says 'overground' station which I presume meant to refer to the main line as neither of Victoria and Waterloo have 'capital O' Overground services.

Paddington is slightly different from Waterloo and Victoria in having both leaky entrances / exits and it does have possible interchange issues particularly when the bridge end is open.

[chrisr_75]

I just googled for dumbelling (thankfully on my phone, not my work PC - there are a number of different definitions shall we say...!) and I don't think this is what is going with the example from the OP^▸ (Original Poster / topic starter).

The original article says 'overground' station which I presume meant to refer to the main line as neither of Victoria and Waterloo have 'capital O' Overground services.

Paddington is slightly different from Waterloo and Victoria in having both leaky entrances / exits and it does have possible interchange issues particularly when the bridge end is open.

Yes, they really need to make things simpler at PAD^» (Paddington (London) - next trains) for Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services) card users, especially at the footbridge end where there are no standalone card readers - there seem to be quite a number using Oyster or contactless as far as West Drayton and it's not particularly easy when some of the stoppers go from the low numbered platforms as those gates do not have card readers fitted. Also about time Oyster/contactless was useable as far as Heathrow, at least on the Connects.

[grahame]

What does dumbelling mean? 

It's an illegal practise which I'll describe in frequent posters rather than in public (busy though - will need to be this evening).   Not sure it's what's happening here - will need to think about that.

My definition at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=18017.0

[bobm]

I have been caught out on one occasion when the barrier was busy because the card was not read - I should have waited for the beep, but it was busy and noisy and I assumed I had not been able to hear it because of the noise -  however the people were moving through so fast that the barrier was not closing so I was able to get through. I am now more careful but I have had to move my card around to get the beep noise on many occasions. This does slow things when it is busy.  

I always wait for the person in front of me to clear the gates and they *start* to close before placing my card on the reader on the basis the gates will not reopen until the card has been read successfully.  Might be mildly annoying for anyone behind me - but not as annoying as having to protest my innocence at a later date.

[chrisr_75]

I have been caught out on one occasion when the barrier was busy because the card was not read - I should have waited for the beep, but it was busy and noisy and I assumed I had not been able to hear it because of the noise -  however the people were moving through so fast that the barrier was not closing so I was able to get through. I am now more careful but I have had to move my card around to get the beep noise on many occasions. This does slow things when it is busy.  

I always wait for the person in front of me to clear the gates and they *start* to close before placing my card on the reader on the basis the gates will not reopen until the card has been read successfully.  Might be mildly annoying for anyone behind me - but not as annoying as having to protest my innocence at a later date.

Always worth, if you can, doing this for people following you, or at least be aware of someone following closely behind and stop briefly to let them pass - a lot of people tailgate others through the barriers in order to not scan their card without being as obvious as jumping the barrier...I've had it happen a few times to me (I think), but sadly no staff were present whenever I've been aware of it. Big problem I believe, but fairly easily detected if staff are present and watching.

[Surrey 455]

From News Shopper

The overground stations at Waterloo and Victoria charged the most overall, raking in £1.83 million and £1.35 million respectively, but other stations a little closer to home were also highly ranked.

Paddington is slightly different from Waterloo and Victoria in having both leaky entrances / exits and it does have possible interchange issues particularly when the bridge end is open.

When you say leaky exits, are you referring to the lack of a ticket barrier? If yes then Waterloo has this problem as well. If you leave the main line platforms via the stairs on each platform to the subway you will come across the SWT^▸ (South West Trains) exit ticket barriers. Just past this is the Waterloo and City line which does not have barriers. You are supposed to tap out on the SWT exits and tap in a few seconds later on the W&C validators. I suspect a lot of people are being caught out thinking the ticket barriers are for the underground thus incurring extra costs.

[didcotdean]

I was thinking of this as more of a mode interchange problem - although if there is also a way from main line arrivals out of the station that way that avoids any barriers than I suppose it does. I haven't been a regular user of Waterloo in over 20 years so wouldn't claim any expertise on its present configuration.

[grahame]

Thinking back to the original article - are we reading the wrong end of the story?

If you travel from Waterloo to (say) Syon Lane, checking in correctly at Waterloo and failing to check out at Syon Lane, wouldn't you come up as a Waterloo failure even though your mistake was made at Syon Lane?

[stuving]

Thinking back to the original article - are we reading the wrong end of the story?

If you travel from Waterloo to (say) Syon Lane, checking in correctly at Waterloo and failing to check out at Syon Lane, wouldn't you come up as a Waterloo failure even though your mistake was made at Syon Lane?

That sounds right - but so does vice versa, i.e. touching out only.

What the figures really mean isn't at all clear. The table is here: Incomplete Pay As You Go journeys. The introductory page says:

Incomplete pay as you go with Oyster^▸ (Smartcard system used by passengers on Transport for London services)

We publish the number of journeys made where customers have forgotten to touch in or out (called 'incomplete journeys') and the refunds we have automatically made.

If a customer has not touched out at the end of their journey and been charged a maximum fare, and the journey history of the card suggests an occasional failure to touch out, we try to use the card history to work out their likely destination.

If they are due a refund, it is loaded back onto their Oyster card the next time they touch in or out at the station they use most often. We publish the number of these refunds.

But that table is headed "Incomplete Pay As You Go journeys by station", so where are the figures for refunds? And it doesn't explain the link with the station, though as Graham says it has to be where the touch happened, in or out.

And to add context, while Waterloo NR^» (Network Rail - home page) has £1.83M listed for Jan-Sep 2016 (£2.79M for 2015), Waterloo LU has £0.69M and £0.97M.

Those Waterloo figures (as journeys) were sharply higher for 2015, though for most stations they went down a bit. Now why would that be?

[Bmblbzzz]

Touching in only is probably more likely than touching out only, at least as a misunderstanding rather than a failure to properly touch. After all, it's the correct procedure on buses. I wouldn't like to guess which is more common as fare-dodging.

[ChrisB]

Those Waterloo figures (as journeys) were sharply higher for 2015, though for most stations they went down a bit. Now why would that be?

Better education methods used?