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Author Topic: Split season tickets at Didcot and the the new Conditions of Travel  (Read 26433 times)
t0m
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« on: December 17, 2016, 23:48:24 »

Hi

I just spotted that the info on split ticketing has been updated in the new Conditions of Travel.. see 14.2 (pasted below for ease).

I buy 2x season tickets PAD» (Paddington (London) - next trains) <> STD that I split at Didcot. I sometimes catch the 16:30 PAD service and change at SWI» (Swindon - next trains) because the 16:45 service doesn't stop at Didcot. Under the new Conditions of Travel, is the implication that using 2 season tickets means the train does not actually need to stop? It doesn't make clear that the 2nd ticket can't be a season ticket (which was clear under the old Conditions of Carriage).

14.2 If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based
 Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with
 another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first
 station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not
 need to call at that station for your combination to be valid.

Thoughts welcome!
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ellendune
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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2016, 23:59:27 »

I think this means you cannot use 2 season tickets.  If one of the tickets is a season then the other must be another sort of ticket. 
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JayMac
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« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2016, 01:12:12 »

First off, a very warm welcome ro the forum t0m.  Smiley

Under the new National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCOT (National Rail Conditions of Travel)) two Season Tickets can be used in the way the OP (Original Poster / topic starter) states provided they cover the entire journey. There is no need for trains to call at the split point.

This is a relaxing of the previous rule regarding split Seasons. Prior to October 2016 the train you were on had to call at the split point when using two Season Tickets. The wording of Condition 14.2 in the new NRCoT says nothing about what the second ticket should or must be. So it can be any ticket type, including Season.

So, in your case tOm, what you are proposing is fine. Split your Seasons at Didcot Parkway and travel on services between London Paddington <> Swindon/Stroud that pass through Didcot.

« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 01:24:36 by bignosemac » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2016, 08:06:56 »

Thoughts welcome!

My reading of the amended (re-written) rules (see 2b for your query):

On holding one ticket to cover several end to end journeys ...

1a. If you buy a Melksham to London (Terminals) ticket you are allowed to start your journey on any train it's valid on, and to break your journey at any point along the way provided that the the ticket your travelling on is also valid on that continung train.

1b. If you fail to make the whole journey (join late or leave short) that's OK on most regular tickets.  It is NOT valid on Advance or Megatrain tickets, and I don't think it's valid where the only reason you're allowed onto a particular train is because its a through train (no local example ... in Scotland, examples on the Fife circle)

1c. You can also leave a gap in the service you travel on and use your ticket in parts.  For example, on an off peak Cambridge to Melksham ticket last week I wanted to cover the Paddington to Hayes and Harlington section in the peak and bought a separate ticket for that section.  At Paddington (obviously!) and Hayes and Harlington (not quite so obvious) I broke my journey.

1d. I am in some doubt as to what the rules are for splitting and resuming on a different route - using (for example) an "any permitted" ticket from Melksham to London, breaking the journey at Didcot and resuming at Theale. I would suspect that's not valid and that resumption needs to be on the same route, so Tilehust or Pangbourne would be fine where Theale is not.

On using several tickets to cover a single journey ...

2a. If you buy multiple tickets to cover a journey, and they cover the complete journey in sections, you can use them on any train which calls at the station(s) at which you transfer from one ticket to another, subject to both / all the tickets being valid on the trains / for the individual journeys you're making on those trains.  On advance tickets which are valid for travel in specific seats, ther may be a requirement for you to change seats at the station where you transfer from one tickt to another.

2b. If you have multiple tickets to cover your journey and one is a season ticket, ranger, or rover, you may addtionally to rule 2a travel on a train that passes through but does not stop at the station where you switch to or from that season ticket, ranger or rover. As from 1st October 2016, the type of the second ticket involved in this split is immaterial - just its validity. This is a relaxation of previous rules.   I am unclear as to how this rule applies to trains using avoiding lines and not "passing though" stations such as Westbury, Frome, Weston-super-mare and Gloucester.

Some things you are NOT allowed to do ...

3a. You are not allowed to transfer from one ticket which is NOT a season ticket, ranger or rover to another ticket which is NOT a season ticket, ranger or rover at a station where the train does not stop, even if you make another join elsewhere in your journey from onto a season ticket, ranger or rover. This is a tightening of the rules as from 1st October 2016.  For example, if you use a ranger / rover such as a Freedom of Severn and Solent up to Cheltenham Spa, and travel on to Glasgow on a series of split tickets, you could previously do a second split at Oxenholme even if the train didn't call there, but that's no longer allowed and you are now limited to trains calling at Oxenholme.

3b. Where you use multiple tickets for a journey, you are not allowed gaps in the coverage of your route.

3c. You are not allowed to use any part(s) of any ticket out of sequence. For example, you can't use any part of the outbound ticket once you've started to use the return part.

On routing ...

4a. An "any permitted" ticket is valid via any route offered on ticket booking engines for the journey or any route offered through the routing guide.   It does NOT mean any route that you consider as a passenger to be reasonable.

4b. Tickets routed "via Xxxxxx" are accepted on trains that pass though the station at Xxxxxx without stopping as well as ones that call there.   Between Xxxxxxxx and your start and end points, any permitted route may be taken.

When the rules don't 100% apply ...

5a. Authorised rail staff can make exceptions - for example, I have been allowed to travel early on an advanced ticket where the service I was booked on was severely delayed, and I have been allowed when travelling on an advance ticket to leave a train early (at Chippenham) because the train was running late and the final connection to Bradford-on-Avon (where I was ticketed to) would have missed.

5b. During planned or emergency engineering works, where trains are diverted away from their normal routes, or where no service is being offered via the ticketed route even though one was scheduled? For example London to Exeter "via Taunton" should be accepted on trains diverted from Castle Cary via Yeovil.

At this point, the above is just my personal reading and is in no way guaranteed to be correct, so you cannot trust it and must check/ask as you book.  It's something that does need writing up as a reference for people, so I would welcome comments / questions / corrections, but even after that's done it will need to remain advise to be checked at time of travel.   
« Last Edit: December 18, 2016, 08:26:51 by grahame » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2016, 08:50:10 »

That all looks... terribly confusing! But thanks for trying to make sense of it.

Looking at your 3a, it appears that we could still (as we've often done in the past) buy a Freedom of Wales ticket which is valid from Severn Tunnel Junction and buy a ticket from Bath to Severn Tunnel Junction to make our journeys to Bangor, although many of the trains do not stop at Severn Tunnel Junction. We have had a few *discussions* about doing that with various train managers.

I've never quite understood how split ticketing policies can be enforced. Your ticket is punched as having been on the journey, but doesn't record where you decide to split, so presumably you can rejoin the train anywhere en route.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2016, 08:55:57 »

Thoughts welcome!

My reading of the amended (re-written) rules (see 2b for your query):

On holding one ticket to cover several end to end journeys ...

1a. If you buy a Melksham to London (Terminals) ticket you are allowed to start your journey on any train it's valid on, and to break your journey at any point along the way provided that the the ticket your travelling on is also valid on that continung train.

1b. If you fail to make the whole journey (join late or leave short) that's OK on most regular tickets.  It is NOT valid on Advance or Megatrain tickets, and I don't think it's valid where the only reason you're allowed onto a particular train is because its a through train (no local example ... in Scotland, examples on the Fife circle)

1c. You can also leave a gap in the service you travel on and use your ticket in parts.  For example, on an off peak Cambridge to Melksham ticket last week I wanted to cover the Paddington to Hayes and Harlington section in the peak and bought a separate ticket for that section.  At Paddington (obviously!) and Hayes and Harlington (not quite so obvious) I broke my journey.

1d. I am in some doubt as to what the rules are for splitting and resuming on a different route - using (for example) an "any permitted" ticket from Melksham to London, breaking the journey at Didcot and resuming at Theale. I would suspect that's not valid and that resumption needs to be on the same route, so Tilehust or Pangbourne would be fine where Theale is not.

On using several tickets to cover a single journey ...

2a. If you buy multiple tickets to cover a journey, and they cover the complete journey in sections, you can use them on any train which calls at the station(s) at which you transfer from one ticket to another, subject to both / all the tickets being valid on the trains / for the individual journeys you're making on those trains.  On advance tickets which are valid for travel in specific seats, ther may be a requirement for you to change seats at the station where you transfer from one tickt to another.

2b. If you have multiple tickets to cover your journey and one is a season ticket, ranger, or rover, you may addtionally to rule 2a travel on a train that passes through but does not stop at the station where you switch to or from that season ticket, ranger or rover. As from 1st October 2016, the type of the second ticket involved in this split is immaterial - just its validity. This is a relaxation of previous rules.   I am unclear as to how this rule applies to trains using avoiding lines and not "passing though" stations such as Westbury, Frome, Weston-super-mare and Gloucester.

Some things you are NOT allowed to do ...

3a. You are not allowed to transfer from one ticket which is NOT a season ticket, ranger or rover to another ticket which is NOT a season ticket, ranger or rover at a station where the train does not stop, even if you make another join elsewhere in your journey from onto a season ticket, ranger or rover. This is a tightening of the rules as from 1st October 2016.  For example, if you use a ranger / rover such as a Freedom of Severn and Solent up to Cheltenham Spa, and travel on to Glasgow on a series of split tickets, you could previously do a second split at Oxenholme even if the train didn't call there, but that's no longer allowed and you are now limited to trains calling at Oxenholme.

3b. Where you use multiple tickets for a journey, you are not allowed gaps in the coverage of your route.

3c. You are not allowed to use any part(s) of any ticket out of sequence. For example, you can't use any part of the outbound ticket once you've started to use the return part.

On routing ...

4a. An "any permitted" ticket is valid via any route offered on ticket booking engines for the journey or any route offered through the routing guide.   It does NOT mean any route that you consider as a passenger to be reasonable.

4b. Tickets routed "via Xxxxxx" are accepted on trains that pass though the station at Xxxxxx without stopping as well as ones that call there.   Between Xxxxxxxx and your start and end points, any permitted route may be taken.

When the rules don't 100% apply ...

5a. Authorised rail staff can make exceptions - for example, I have been allowed to travel early on an advanced ticket where the service I was booked on was severely delayed, and I have been allowed when travelling on an advance ticket to leave a train early (at Chippenham) because the train was running late and the final connection to Bradford-on-Avon (where I was ticketed to) would have missed.

5b. During planned or emergency engineering works, where trains are diverted away from their normal routes, or where no service is being offered via the ticketed route even though one was scheduled? For example London to Exeter "via Taunton" should be accepted on trains diverted from Castle Cary via Yeovil.

At this point, the above is just my personal reading and is in no way guaranteed to be correct, so you cannot trust it and must check/ask as you book.  It's something that does need writing up as a reference for people, so I would welcome comments / questions / corrections, but even after that's done it will need to remain advise to be checked at time of travel.   

Thanks for that brief and unambiguous explanation Grahame  Cheesy
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grahame
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« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2016, 09:25:57 »

That all looks... terribly confusing! But thanks for trying to make sense of it.

It ain't easy ... I thought it might be a good idea to at least try ...

Quote
Looking at your 3a, it appears that we could still (as we've often done in the past) buy a Freedom of Wales ticket which is valid from Severn Tunnel Junction and buy a ticket from Bath to Severn Tunnel Junction to make our journeys to Bangor, although many of the trains do not stop at Severn Tunnel Junction. We have had a few *discussions* about doing that with various train managers.

Valid - I would agree (not that my opinion carries any official standing).  Ticketing is complex - you're probably a member of our "Frequent Poster's Club" by now, and you'll note a long thread in there which relates to "discussions" with railway staff who aren't fully aware of the details of ticketing themselves.

There are ... 3,216,917 different station pairs that you can buy tickets between and there are at least 2, more often 4 and sometimes a lot more ticket types (singles, returns, peaks, off peaks, first and standard class just for starters) and whilst there are blanket-ish rules that apply to whole rafts of tickets, it's sometimes hard to know (and sometimes perverse) where that border is.

Quote
I've never quite understood how split ticketing policies can be enforced. Your ticket is punched as having been on the journey, but doesn't record where you decide to split, so presumably you can rejoin the train anywhere en route.

Splitting isn't too hard with on train inspection.  Break of journey and rejoins is very technical and interesting to enforce and often has to be taken on trust.  But there are mechanisms in what gates encode onto tickets and in the stamps (and shapes of holes and scrawlings on tickets) that means it's not quite so much on trust as you might imagine.
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« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2016, 09:46:55 »

Grahame, 2b got me thinking, and main example is the night riviera where my example stands out. Travelling Sunday night passenger holds an Exeter to Taunton season, they top up with a Taunton to London ticket, but how far in advance is routing advertised if at all? I know of realtime trains through my interests, but isn't something your typical passenger may know.
On Sunday nights sometimes it goes Honiton and sometimes Taunton.
Is their provision for passengers using such a split?
Other occasions with the sleeper is between Taunton and Reading there are multiple options it can take.
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« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2016, 22:09:27 »

Grahame, 2b got me thinking, and main example is the night riviera where my example stands out. Travelling Sunday night passenger holds an Exeter to Taunton season, they top up with a Taunton to London ticket, but how far in advance is routing advertised if at all? I know of realtime trains through my interests, but isn't something your typical passenger may know.
On Sunday nights sometimes it goes Honiton and sometimes Taunton.
Is their provision for passengers using such a split?
Other occasions with the sleeper is between Taunton and Reading there are multiple options it can take.


I suspect 5b would apply - engineering change off normal route;  whether it's in the rules or not, I can't see any train operator wanting to challenge you on a split because the rail industry changed normal practise for the one night!
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« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2016, 22:43:52 »

Re 1b, would a local example be the morning XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service from Cardiff northbound via Temple Meads.  Could you use it to travel from Filton Abbey Wood to Parkway via Temple Meads, whereas I presume normally that would not be a valid routing?
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« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2016, 07:15:06 »

Re 1b, would a local example be the morning XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service from Cardiff northbound via Temple Meads.  Could you use it to travel from Filton Abbey Wood to Parkway via Temple Meads, whereas I presume normally that would not be a valid routing?

That sounds like the sort of thing ... but it's not one I've heard mentioned previously.
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« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2016, 08:42:54 »

Re 1b, would a local example be the morning XC (Cross Country Trains (franchise)) service from Cardiff northbound via Temple Meads.  Could you use it to travel from Filton Abbey Wood to Parkway via Temple Meads, whereas I presume normally that would not be a valid routing?


This is covered in the Conditions of Travel:

Quote
13.3 Your Ticket may show that it is valid only on certain train services, such as those of a particular Train Company, or on trains travelling via a certain route or routes. If no specific route or Train Company is shown, then (subject to any time restrictions for the type of fare you have purchased) it will be valid on:
 
a) any direct train service between the station(s) shown on your Ticket

The 0741 service from Filton Abbey Wood is a direct train service to Bristol Parkway, albeit via a reversal at Bristol Temple Meads.
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« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2016, 10:30:33 »

It is coming up to annual season ticket renewal time and I pose the following by example only for criticism: (prices are today's numbers)

An annual First Class season ticket between Didcot and Paddington is £10,884.

But by splitting the season at Maidenhead, the following figures are derived:
Didcot - Maidenhead: £4340 and Maidenhead - Paddington: £4404 - a combined total of £8744 (representing a saving of £2140).

With the rule changes to the NCoT, one could now take any up express from Didcot to London as it no longer needs to stop at Maidenhead; just pass through.

The only downside over a £10,884 ticket is that the split combination is not valid via Staines and Waterloo - Hardly a downside at 25 versus 90 minutes. Have I missed something here?

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« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2016, 11:15:23 »

Re BNM's answer above....

Doubling back used to be banned under the old comditions. Has that ban been lifted?
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« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2016, 11:39:04 »

Re BNM's answer above....

Doubling back used to be banned under the old comditions. Has that ban been lifted?

I don't thinks so - but "doubling back" was banned under the routing guide. This "use any through train" rule is in addition to the routing guide and so doesn't take on the routing guide's doubling back limitations.
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