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grahame
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« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2016, 13:15:18 » |
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A journalist investigating ... [name deleted] here from the [media deleted].
I was wondering if you would be able to help. We are running a story tomorrow on rail companies paying out huge sums of money to passengers in compensation for delays. Nationwide, rail firms have coughed up £45 million in the past year. The GWR▸ has handed out a whopping £6 million, the third largest figure in the entire country.
I was wondering if this is something on which [organisation] would like to comment. I'm noting "whopping £6 million" in his letter and "third largest" hinting that GWR may have very serious issues and a huge financial compensation bill ... But ... 6 million pounds, over 360 days and 750 passenger carrying vehicles works out at £22.22 per vehicle per day. For an 8 car HST▸ , that's refunding one peak return ticket from Chippenham to London for the entire train which doesn't strike me as a massive amount. And as one of the larger franchises, I would expect the amount paid out to be one of the larger amounts, all other things being equal! |
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Coffee Shop Admin, Chair of Melksham Rail User Group, TravelWatch SouthWest Board Member
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2016, 14:25:05 » |
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A journalist investigating ... [name deleted] here from the [media deleted].
I was wondering if you would be able to help. We are running a story tomorrow on rail companies paying out huge sums of money to passengers in compensation for delays. Nationwide, rail firms have coughed up £45 million in the past year. The GWR▸ has handed out a whopping £6 million, the third largest figure in the entire country.
I was wondering if this is something on which [organisation] would like to comment. I'm noting "whopping £6 million" in his letter and "third largest" hinting that GWR may have very serious issues and a huge financial compensation bill ... But ... 6 million pounds, over 360 days and 750 passenger carrying vehicles works out at £22.22 per vehicle per day. For an 8 car HST▸ , that's refunding one peak return ticket from Chippenham to London for the entire train which doesn't strike me as a massive amount. And as one of the larger franchises, I would expect the amount paid out to be one of the larger amounts, all other things being equal! ........certainly nothing like as "whopping " as the compensation GWR has received from Network Rail! (aka the taxpayer) |
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ChrisB
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« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2016, 14:57:18 » |
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Are you suggesting that the TOCs▸ are making money out of NR» 's compensation? I don't think it's very much.
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ray951
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« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2016, 15:30:08 » |
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To know whether £6million is 'whopping' you would need to know what % of GWR▸ revenue it is. The revenue of First Rail (includes GWR and TPE▸ ) was £1.3bn in 2015 so £6m is probably about 0.6% of GWR revenue (I can't find any figures that show how the revenue should be split between TPE and GWR). So hardly whopping. First Group Accounts can be found here http://www.firstgroupplc.com/~/media/Files/F/Firstgroup-Plc/indexed-pdfs/2016%20ARA/FirstGroup%20plc%20Annual%20Report%20and%20Accounts%202016.pdfAnd does the £6m include the season ticket discounts for delays? In 14/15 GWR received approx £55m from Network Rail for delays. Data available here http://www.networkrail.co.uk/transparency/datasets/. Incidentally TPE received £5m for the same period. Obviously GWR will have costs attributed to disruption: coach hire, staff overtime, etc. But I can't see how they can't be making a profit from this. The First Rail profit (GWR and TPE) for 2015 was only £72m so it could be that a large percentage of the profit was made from delay payments. If that is true do GWR have any incentive to work with or put pressure on Network Rail in reducing delays? |
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ChrisB
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« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2016, 15:40:51 » |
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Well, the ORR» have been known to step in & fine/require TOCs▸ to otherwise spend money on improvements if their stats are abysmal....
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2016, 16:18:17 » |
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Are you suggesting that the TOCs▸ are making money out of NR» 's compensation? I don't think it's very much.
Yes - and thanks to ray951 for quantifying it so succinctly. |
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ChrisB
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« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2016, 16:27:31 » |
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Why shouldn't a public body in charge of keeping the rails working be compensating the companies using it?
The alternative would be higher costs from NR» on the taxpayer, so we pay one way or another!
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2016, 16:36:40 » |
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Does the average profit margin of a TOC▸ of around 3% include these rebates from NR» , or are they in addition to?
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To view my GWML▸ Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/ |
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ChrisB
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« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2016, 16:38:59 » |
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Will be included.
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TaplowGreen
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« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2016, 16:39:52 » |
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Why shouldn't a public body in charge of keeping the rails working be compensating the companies using it?
The alternative would be higher costs from NR» on the taxpayer, so we pay one way or another!
I think it's fair that NR cover the costs incurred by a TOC▸ when a delay is attributed to them..........I think the question is whether the latter should be making millions of £ in additional profit based based on this compensation (paid by NR, aka the taxpayer) as it weakens or removes any motivation for delays to be reduced as Ray alluded to. ...............I wonder if GWR▸ have to fill in a form, send it off and wait 6 weeks for a reply like the rest of us mere mortals? Do they get Network Rail vouchers I wonder???  |
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ChrisB
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« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2016, 16:41:52 » |
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|I bet it takes weeks for NR» to pay up though!
Second thoughts - I doubt any money changes hands - TOCs▸ are likely to receive a credit against their track usage charges.
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IndustryInsider
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« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2016, 16:43:23 » |
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The arguments will be fierce and complex, just like they are for delay attribution.
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To view my GWML▸ Electrification cab video 'before and after' video comparison, as well as other videos of the new layout at Reading and 'before and after' comparisons of the Cotswold Line Redoubling scheme, see: http://www.dailymotion.com/user/IndustryInsider/ |
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4064ReadingAbbey
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« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2016, 20:19:09 » |
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To know whether £6million is 'whopping' you would need to know what % of GWR▸ revenue it is.
The revenue of First Rail (includes GWR and TPE▸ ) was £1.3bn in 2015 so £6m is probably about 0.6% of GWR revenue (I can't find any figures that show how the revenue should be split between TPE and GWR). So hardly whopping.
<BIG SNIP>!
The ORR» publishes quite detailed data on the franchised TOCs▸ , covering income and the split of costs among various headings. For 2014-15 GWR's passenger income was £882,425,000 and other income amounted to £74 million. TPE's passenger income was £212,526,000, Government support was £43,906,000 and other income amounted to £13,356,000 The document is called <gb-rail-industry-financial-information-2014-15.xlsx> but I haven't kept a record of the URL where I found it. Try searching the ORR's web site. There may be later data available but I haven't looked. |
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ChrisB
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« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2016, 21:21:18 » |
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So that's £6million in approx (old figure, probably more this year) in £882 million income. That's equivalent to 0.62% of revenue!!! Tiny, rather than small
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