Train Operating Companies v Trade Unions dispute - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[TonyK]

Labour's Winter of Discontent, anyone? Both sides equally meddle

Too late for that. I'm off to Sports Direct to get a Discount Tent, just in case. I'll keep that by the door with my passport, and enough petrol in the British car to get to Devon. I should be safe there - normal rules don't apply. The nearest station to my drum is at Kings Nympton, about 11 miles away.

And what defines 'Government'? All those civil servants that keep the wheels of government in motion aren't democratically elected.

Now, come on BNM! As a civil servant, I worked for Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II for more years than I care to count, no-one else. I was democratically appointed to my first post by a board of three middle-class white males under a system doubtless approved by parliament once. I signed the Official Secrets Act, as I also did when I signed up for the Territorial Army Volunteer Reserve, and I haven't broken it yet.

Whilst me and the Queen were running the country (she still is), Prime Ministers have come and gone - Harold Wilson, James Callaghan, Margaret Thatcher, John Major, Tony Blair, Gordon Brown, and David Cameron. I technically worked under Theresa May's administration, as she was appointed Prime Minister on 11 July this year, by co-incidence my last day of service. In practice, I didn't do anything for her as I was using up annual leave before I retired.

The Civil Service is not political. Ideally, it would be incorruptible, and almost is, although a few cases always emerge to show otherwise. Without political view or favour, it carries out the policies of the elected government, without comment, in much the same way as the army goes and shoots whoever the government says it should shoot. Some may argue that DafT has fallen under the party political sphere of influence in a way not seen before - I could comment, being retired, but won't.

[TaplowGreen]

Not a politician, but Peter Wilkinson, the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about)'s Passenger Services Director, has said some pretty inflammatory things about rail staff. As a senior civil servant his utterances are at just one remove from his political paymasters. Polar opposite in viewpoint but not too different in sentiment to that of the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) President.

Said to residents of Croydon at a meeting:
"Over the next three years we're going to be having punch ups and we will see industrial action and I want your support."

On train drivers threats to strike: "I'm furious about it and it has got to change - we have got to break them. They have all borrowed money to buy cars and got credit cards. They can't afford to spend too long on strike and I will push them into that place. They will have to decide if they want to give a good service or get the hell out of my industry."

One side wants to spit on the other. The other side wants a punch up.

There really is no need to bring the likes if Stalin, Pol Pot or Castro into this thread. Otherwise, for a balancing far right viewpoint, there's a danger that Godwin's Law will be invoked. 

Interestingly in missing/misunderstanding my point in your final paragraph, you've actually helped to demonstrate it.

The Left (not exclusively but mostly) find it really difficult to be unequivocal in condemning their icons  - there is always a "Yeah but" or a "whatabout?" - therefore we have Castro- a brutal dictator who murdered thousands of his own citizens - "Yeah but he built lots of hospitals and schools" - Mao - murdered tens of millions - "Yeah but he industrialised China" - Stalin - murdered tens of millions - "Yeah but what about Hitler?".......................there is a time when you have to condemn wickedness unequivocally without "Balance" or relativism because otherwise it devalues what has gone on......or you end up with a "Top Trumps" style debate - most dictators will have done something positive for the people who support them and/or someone worse can be identified, that doesn't mitigate the rest.


The issue/context here is that the President of a Trade union, has made the suggestion regarding the democratically elected Government, that ""if we all spit together we can drown the bastards"  - my point is, there is no room for nit picking equivocation over a statement like this - it is disgraceful and should be roundly and unequivocally condemned, it would be refreshing if the leadership of the many millions of decent Trade Unionists who respect the democratic system could join in this condemnation......we shall see, and many will measure them accordingly.

(I am not suggesting that the good people on this Forum awake every morning to the sound of the Internationale by the way!!!)

[ChrisB]

Won't happen...their use if the word 'Brother'....one never criticises another, at least publicly, regardless of what he's done

[IndustryInsider]

Won't happen...their use if the word 'Brother'....one never criticises another, at least publicly, regardless of what he's done

Though they will happily resort to fisticuffs...   

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/jun/16/politics.tradeunions

[BerkshireBugsy]

Can anyone explain to me the technical difference between DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) services on a network such as SE (or any other for that matter) and the tube network? Am I missing something here?

I'm just curious why DOO on the tube is any different.

Or am I being naive...I suspect I may be (I'm also not trying to provoke an argument)

[TaplowGreen]

Won't happen...their use if the word 'Brother'....one never criticises another, at least publicly, regardless of what he's done

Though they will happily resort to fisticuffs...   

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/jun/16/politics.tradeunions

They really are lovely people aren't they? Brothers striking sisters, hardly very comradely? 

[grahame]

I'm just curious why DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) on the tube is any different.

Tube trains are fewer carriages that some of the trains currently being discussed, and there are staff at every tube station throughout the time trains operate.   That's for starters ... there are other things I'm not 100% sure of such as the levels and types of CCTV^▸ (Closed Circuit Tele Vision) and where it's monitored from, lighting levels, maximum gap between train and platform, type of door sensor.   There is also the difference that the political Lord and masters for the underground are a Labour mayor contract, whereas for Southern it's a Conservative / government controlled contract; whether that latter is a consideration is a subject for fierce speculation.

[BerkshireBugsy]

I'm just curious why DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) on the tube is any different.

Tube trains are fewer carriages that some of the trains currently being discussed, and there are staff at every tube station throughout the time trains operate.   That's for starters ... there are other things I'm not 100% sure of such as the levels and types of CCTV^▸ (Closed Circuit Tele Vision) and where it's monitored from, lighting levels, maximum gap between train and platform, type of door sensor.   There is also the difference that the political Lord and masters for the underground are a Labour mayor contract, whereas for Southern it's a Conservative / government controlled contract; whether that latter is a consideration is a subject for fierce speculation.

thank you Graham - I guess I was thinking about it purely from the on-board control but as you say there are other reasons. I had guess there were it was just I wasn't aware of them.

[IndustryInsider]

They really are lovely people aren't they? Brothers striking sisters, hardly very comradely? 

To be fair, that incident was over 12 years ago.  It was when a 'maverick' General Secretary had been elected that none of the rest of the leadership wanted.  I think many of the ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) membership rolled their eyes just like in your post, TG!

This link regarding the build up and aftermath makes for sobering reading:  http://www.labournet.net/ukunion/0408/aslef21.html

[TonyK]

Meanwhile, after examining some fish entrails, reading the tea leaves, and watching the 1 O'Clock News on the BBC^» (British Broadcasting Corporation - home page), I get the impression that the government is quietly trying to paddle its canoe backwards out of the particular creek in which this argument is to be found, and the other one involving airlines. "Essential service" legislation is said to be too cumbersome a tool, especially as the last lot of anti-strike legislation doesn't even come into effect until the new year. The government doesn't want something as contentious as that cluttering up the programme when it needs all of its time and energy for Brexit.

The next few days may give some indication.

[Tim]

I'm just curious why DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) on the tube is any different.

Tube trains are fewer carriages that some of the trains currently being discussed, and there are staff at every tube station throughout the time trains operate.   That's for starters ... there are other things I'm not 100% sure of such as the levels and types of CCTV^▸ (Closed Circuit Tele Vision) and where it's monitored from, lighting levels, maximum gap between train and platform, type of door sensor.   There is also the difference that the political Lord and masters for the underground are a Labour mayor contract, whereas for Southern it's a Conservative / government controlled contract; whether that latter is a consideration is a subject for fierce speculation.

Also AIUI^▸ (as I understand it) the tube lines under normal operation are under automatic train control.  You could ague (if you ignored the fact that the drivers can and do drive on occasion) that the tube drivers primary role is to open and close the doors rather than to drive the trains

[ChrisB]

Only some, I think, such as the Victoria (and Northern?)....I think the sub-surface lines are still being driven.

[IndustryInsider]

And Jubilee and Central.  So, yes, for the time being, sub-surface lines are all driven by the driver.

[Bmblbzzz]

Given that railway byelaws specifically prohibit the action taken by the person at Hayes, I wonder how successful such a claim would be? 

No person shall move, operate, obstruct, stop or in any other way interfere with any automatic closing door, train, or any other equipment on the railway...:

Maybe the railway should be more open as to what these bylaws are.  Putting a summary of that wording on every door window might make a few people think twice, and at least it would be clear where the fault lay in the event of any incident. 

Slightly OT, but a few years ago at Birmingham New St a woman lost her toddler into the gap between train and platform as they were getting off a train. I wasn't there so I don't know exactly how it happened, but I do know someone who was there, and he reached down into the gap and hauled the kid out. Someone else, who I think has worked in railway signalling (...software!), said that in such a situation the first thing to do is to jam the door open in order to prevent the train moving. Obviously I'm not suggesting that anyone doing so would be prosecuted under that regulation, more wondering if it would actually work and whether it should work. That is, on the basis that people do daft things and systems should allow for the worst not to happen when they do, perhaps the door interlocks really should detect a hand? After all, is there anything more likely to get stuck in them?

[IndustryInsider]

That is, on the basis that people do daft things and systems should allow for the worst not to happen when they do, perhaps the door interlocks really should detect a hand? After all, is there anything more likely to get stuck in them?

More modern stock has better detections system, but in the case of the Hayes incident a slim female wrist wasn't big enough to trigger the sensors on a turbo.  The danger of making them too sensitive is that they won't give interlock when it's just the end of a coat/scarf or McDonalds bag stuck in them - which is not uncommon and would cause lots more delays whilst the driver went back to remove them!