Train Operating Companies v Trade Unions dispute - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[Tim]

I think the unions have walked into a trap as Grayling is an ideologue, you only have to have seen his letter to Boris Johnson about tfl and the London suburban services to see that and the Govt will either make it difficult to call strikes in the transport sector or just ban them all together.

you may very well be right.  I suspect that Grayling's role will be to wear the Unions down.  He will then step down and his successor will agree a compromise, but one that weakens the Unions power. 

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

I am no apologist for the unions, but I have some sympathy with them in all this.  The fact is that, over the years, railway management and the unions have willingly negotiated many agreements relating to how the railway is operated.  Many of these agreements are old, but they are still there.  It seems reasonable that neither side can unilaterally withdraw from them.  If one side doesn’t like a particular agreement then it needs to be changed or withdrawn through negotiation, not by one side deciding to ignore it.

Yet on Southern, and I understand on GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), management are saying things like they don’t regard some of these agreements as important, or they can be ignored, or they are irrelevant.  What is also clear is that many of to-day’s railway managers have no idea what some of these agreements are, and that it is not uncommon at meetings for the union side to have to explain them to the management side.

Worth adding that I am aware that, because of management ignorance of some old agreements, productivity opportunities are being missed.

None of the parties involved - DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), Southern management or the unions -  come out of this dispute well.  But the fact is that its management’s job to manage: in a service industry like the railways you have to take your staff with you, and in this they have completely failed.

[JayMac]

Time to make this a general 'Southern woes' thread?

What's going on in the south is likely to rumble on for some time.

Is this the first time an entire franchise (I appreciate Southern is now a brand in a super-franchise) has shut down due to industrial action?

[Tim]

I am no apologist for the unions, but I have some sympathy with them in all this.  The fact is that, over the years, railway management and the unions have willingly negotiated many agreements relating to how the railway is operated.  Many of these agreements are old, but they are still there.  It seems reasonable that neither side can unilaterally withdraw from them.  If one side doesn’t like a particular agreement then it needs to be changed or withdrawn through negotiation, not by one side deciding to ignore it.

Yet on Southern, and I understand on GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), management are saying things like they don’t regard some of these agreements as important, or they can be ignored, or they are irrelevant.  What is also clear is that many of to-day’s railway managers have no idea what some of these agreements are, and that it is not uncommon at meetings for the union side to have to explain them to the management side.

Worth adding that I am aware that, because of management ignorance of some old agreements, productivity opportunities are being missed.

None of the parties involved - DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), Southern management or the unions -  come out of this dispute well.  But the fact is that its management’s job to manage: in a service industry like the railways you have to take your staff with you, and in this they have completely failed.

agree with much of that.  I'd also add that this should all be seen against the backdrop of a growing successful industry with customers and income rising year on year.  One would have thought that negotiations and opportunities for increased productivity would be much easier with that backdrop than they would be if we were talking about a declining industry.    Contrast with the passenger railway with the freight industry where productivity has rocketed due to investment in new technology and accompanying changes in working practices by members of the exact same unions who Chris
Grayling is portraying as outdated dinosaurs. 

[TaplowGreen]

I am no apologist for the unions, but I have some sympathy with them in all this.  The fact is that, over the years, railway management and the unions have willingly negotiated many agreements relating to how the railway is operated.  Many of these agreements are old, but they are still there.  It seems reasonable that neither side can unilaterally withdraw from them.  If one side doesn’t like a particular agreement then it needs to be changed or withdrawn through negotiation, not by one side deciding to ignore it.

Yet on Southern, and I understand on GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), management are saying things like they don’t regard some of these agreements as important, or they can be ignored, or they are irrelevant.  What is also clear is that many of to-day’s railway managers have no idea what some of these agreements are, and that it is not uncommon at meetings for the union side to have to explain them to the management side.

Worth adding that I am aware that, because of management ignorance of some old agreements, productivity opportunities are being missed.

None of the parties involved - DfT^» (Department for Transport - about), Southern management or the unions -  come out of this dispute well.  But the fact is that its management’s job to manage: in a service industry like the railways you have to take your staff with you, and in this they have completely failed.

agree with much of that.  I'd also add that this should all be seen against the backdrop of a growing successful industry with customers and income rising year on year.  One would have thought that negotiations and opportunities for increased productivity would be much easier with that backdrop than they would be if we were talking about a declining industry.    Contrast with the passenger railway with the freight industry where productivity has rocketed due to investment in new technology and accompanying changes in working practices by members of the exact same unions who Chris
Grayling is portraying as outdated dinosaurs. 

I think you need to be careful how you define "success" - in the relevant context of the South East/London yes there is more income and customers but that has everything to do with demographics, employment patterns and monopoly suppliers and pretty much nothing to do with a high quality offering - it's rather like saying a hospital is more "successful" because more patients are turning up for treatment - it's all there is, and hence they don't have much choice.

If what was on offer was a good customer experience, competitively priced and reliable with a high level of customer service then you may find the public more sympathetic, however it patently isn't and this is one of the reasons the public get so annoyed.

The rail unions are in the fortunate position of being able to hold the public to ransom - there used to be a lot of Unions in this position but now they are one of very few, and boy do they milk it for all its worth.

One recalls the annual threats of strikes on the Underground for almost every spurious reason imaginable (especially around Christmas) and the fact that even in Olympic year a "bribe" had to be paid to ensure the service kept running.

Some may say that was down to the canniness of Bob Crow (RIP) and his heirs and successors, others may see it as a cynical ploy to fleece the employers and public.

Against this backdrop, don't expect huge amounts of public sympathy for a dispute nominally about safety (where the regulator has said that there isn't an issue and the system is running on other lines perfectly well) and job losses (where no jobs/compulsory redundancies are on the agenda).

[onthecushions]

Time to make this a general 'Southern woes' thread?

How about "Southern Wails"?

OTC

[chuffed]

If I was a Southern commuter I would bribe a doorman at ACAS to lock all doors and windows where they are meeting. Then refuse all requests for food water and comfort breaks until both sides have signed a binding agreement....that should concentrate their minds wonderfully and give them a taste of the misery they have been inflicting on others....

[4064ReadingAbbey]

<SNIP Grayling's letter>

Classic politician's letter.  Shifting the blame to the Unions because they are stuck in the 1970s rather than focussing on the details of the Southern problem directly in front of him.

The only sensible solution as I see it would be for Southern to retain a second safety critical person on every train and for the Union to allow the drivers to open and close the doors and for the second person to therefore spend more time selling and checking tickets.  All the jobs are retained, the safety advantages of having a second person on board to secure the train and help with evacuations are retained, and the Guard sells a few more tickets and therefore contributes a bit more to his/her upkeep.  The only looser here is the fare dodger.  

I don't see the Unions refusing a compromise of this nature because they agreed to it in Scotland.
I don't see Southern refusing it either as it ends the dispute and has the potential to increase fare revenue.
The only party against this is the Government who has decided that it wants a fight with a Union so that it can bask in the glory of a Thatcher-style union busting success because that is the kind of thing the Tory grass roots love.  

The Rail industry needs to look at how the airlines deal with Safety critical roles.  The cabin crew are highly trained and the plane will not be allowed out full of passengers without them.  But the airlines have decided to view these essential staff as an opportunity and use them to either provide high quality customer service in order to win customers (in First class on a full service airline) or to use them to generate ancillary revenue (selling cups of tea on a low cost carrier).  None of those activities undermine their safety critical role.  

What do you mean exactly by 'safety critical' in a railway context? Flight attendants are there to cope with in-flight emergencies as it's not possible for a plane just to stop. One can't simply, as the song says 'Get out and get under'. The contexts are not strictly comparable.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Time to make this a general 'Southern woes' thread?

How about "Southern Wails"?
OTC

With my thanks to 'OTC' and 'BNM' here on the Coffee Shop forum for their constructive suggestions, I've now amended the heading of this particular topic to more accurately reflect the nature of this ongoing debate. 

[ChrisB]

The unions have offered the Scotrail deal I understand, but GTR want to be able to run delayed trains without a second on board but only during disruption in order to be able to pick up the second en-route. So being flexible with guards/OBS staff getting them turning round short to join their next rostered train rather than having to cancel trains simply through lack of the second staff member.

As long as the legal agreement was watertight (restrict to trains running over 20 mins late maybe), frankly I think the unions should give way.

[chrisr_75]

It's unclear from the article if it was solely Mick Cash or the entire contingent from RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers), but he has been barred from entering the most recent round of talks at ACAS - ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) represent 1000 employees of Southern, RMT only 12:

Full Article : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-38307155

A rail union has reacted with fury after its leader said he was banned from talks aimed at ending strikes on the Southern network.

Mick Cash, general secretary of the RMT, arrived at conciliation service Acas but said he was not allowed in.

Nick Brown, chief operating officer of parent company Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR), said he had told Mr Cash they would be happy to meet him later.

Talks were held with the drivers' union Aslef as a strike entered day two.

After negotiations ended on Wednesday, Aslef chief Mick Whelan said progress had been made, but a strike on Friday would still go ahead.

And GTR issued a statement that said: "Talks have adjourned for today. We are reconvening tomorrow at Acas."

The 48-hour strike on Tuesday and Wednesday by members of the drivers' union Aslef over the introduction of driver-only trains is due to end at midnight.

Southern advised passengers not to travel.

'Complete contempt'

Earlier, Mr Cash said the RMT, which represents conductors, had been expecting discussions but instead "have had the door slammed in our faces".

"Southern rail were fully aware last night that I would be attending the talks this morning at Acas alongside our Aslef colleagues.

"This morning, on arrival for the talks, I was told that I would not allowed to take part by representatives from the company.

"RMT is furious at the complete contempt that has been shown to us by Southern rail this morning which leaves us in a state of limbo when we should all be around the table thrashing out the issues that have led to the current action," he said.

Mr Brown also said he had told Mr Cash they would be happy to to talk about any new proposals he had, adding: "I also asked him to call off their programme of strikes planned for Christmas and new year."

GTR said Aslef represented nearly 1,000 Southern drivers, while the RMT represented only 12.

[Tim]

[What do you mean exactly by 'safety critical' in a railway context? Flight attendants are there to cope with in-flight emergencies as it's not possible for a plane just to stop. One can't simply, as the song says 'Get out and get under'. The contexts are not strictly comparable.

All I mean by safety critical is needing to be there before the service runs.  Flight attendants and Guards are comparable in that sense at least.  Without them the train/aircraft is allowed to move but not with passengers on board.  My point is only that the airline industry has done better than the rail industry in occupying these people with providing customer service (and sometimes even generating income) in the 99.999..% of the journeys where their safety role is not needed.  The Union needs to realise that the key to persuading the ToCs to retain those people is for them to be doing something more useful (to the bottom line) than unlocking doors.

[chrisr_75]

[What do you mean exactly by 'safety critical' in a railway context? Flight attendants are there to cope with in-flight emergencies as it's not possible for a plane just to stop. One can't simply, as the song says 'Get out and get under'. The contexts are not strictly comparable.

All I mean by safety critical is needing to be there before the service runs.  Flight attendants and Guards are comparable in that sense at least.  Without them the train/aircraft is allowed to move but not with passengers on board.  My point is only that the airline industry has done better than the rail industry in occupying these people with providing customer service (and sometimes even generating income) in the 99.999..% of the journeys where their safety role is not needed.  The Union needs to realise that the key to persuading the ToCs to retain those people is for them to be doing something more useful (to the bottom line) than unlocking doors.

I thought Southern had already guaranteed that all of these people (posts) would be retained and that they would not suffer any loss of income, the only change that I understand is losing the responsibility for train door operation, dispatch & protection to a full time customer facing role.

[trainer]

RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) is furious at the complete contempt that has been shown to us by Southern rail this morning...

Perhaps intending passengers who have been subjected to horrors for months feel the same from RMT, ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about), Southern Rail and the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about). 



Edit note: Quote marks fixed, for clarity. CfN. 

[JayMac]

I thought today's ACAS meeting was only booked to be ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about) v Southern.

If so then frankly Bob Crow Mk2^▸ (Mark 2 coach) can do one.

That's not to say Mick ("10 years of strikes") Whelan of ASLEF is any less of a dinosaur than the RMTs^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) Mick Cash.