Train Operating Companies v Trade Unions dispute - ongoing discussion

[whole diary]

[JayMac]

TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), like any othe business, certainly don't like losing revenue

In this dispute though, Southern (or rather parent, GTR) aren't losing revenue. The revenue from GTR goes directly to HMG. GTR are paid a management fee.

It's almost as if someone at the DfT^» (Department for Transport - about) or Treasury knew what would happen when they specified the extension of DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) and changes of guards roles for GTR Southern. Deciding the only way they could tempt bidders was to go for a management contract rather than a 'classic' franchise.

I've no idea if GTR are on any sort of performance targets tied to the management fee. If they are then they've been used as a pawn, and stitched up by HMGs desire to hamstring the rail unions.

It's becoming increasingly clear to me that the only winner in this will be Tory ideology. DOO extension will happen, OBS will happen, working practice modernisation will happen, rail union power will be severely tempered, GTR will probably be pulled from or quit the contract.

The unions have walked into the mire, dragging their members in with them.

[TaplowGreen]

TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), like any othe business, certainly don't like losing revenue

The unions have walked into the mire, dragging their members in with them.

I think that sums it up very succinctly.

[IndustryInsider]

TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company), like any othe business, certainly don't like losing revenue

The unions have walked into the mire, dragging their members in with them.

I think that sums it up very succinctly.

I agree.  Though did the union have any realistic choice?

Would it be better to have this thread moved to 'The Wider Picture'?  I say that with slight reservation though as it might well impact on GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) shortly given they are still in dispute with the RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) over operation of the new IET^▸ (Intercity Express Train) units!

[John R]

And now Merseyrail have stepped in, stating that not only will their new stock be DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)), but not all guards will retain their jobs, and many services will indeed run with only the driver on board.

It will be interesting to see how that pans out.  One of ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about)'s main complaints is the problem trying to monitor 12 coach trains.  That clearly won't be an issue on Merseyrail. 

[TaplowGreen]

And now Merseyrail have stepped in, stating that not only will their new stock be DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)), but not all guards will retain their jobs, and many services will indeed run with only the driver on board.

It will be interesting to see how that pans out.  One of ASLEF^» (Associated Society of Locomotive Engineers and Firemen - about)'s main complaints is the problem trying to monitor 12 coach trains.  That clearly won't be an issue on Merseyrail. 

I have to ask again, if DOO is such a worry on safety grounds, why did Mick Whelan agree to his members operating 12 car DOO trains for First Capital Connect in return for a pay rise for drivers in 2011?

[ChrisB]

Or even "What has changed since 2011 to make you change your mind re DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard))?"

[Gordon the Blue Engine]

I think one thing that has changed is passenger expectations, reflecting wider social changes.  Everyone seems less willing to take responsibility for themselves, and instead expect others to “look after” them.  20 years ago if you put your hand in a Tube door the Driver would probably not release it but instead wait until you pulled it out – if you got dragged along that was your fault.

I mentioned the Hayes incident before.  Here was a passenger running down the ramp towards a train that was preparing to depart and deliberately putting their hand in a closing door hoping to get it opened.  Because of the small gap the Driver gets the door interlocks OK and is able to take power and drive off.  Who got blamed? The Driver.  Who would have got blamed 20 years ago? The passenger.

DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) on 12 car trains is fine if the passengers behave sensibly and keep clear of closing doors, and don’t try and blame Southern, the Driver etc if they do something silly and get hurt.  But that is not how to-days consumers behave, they’ll always want to blame someone else for their own wrong actions etc.

So the thing that has changed since 2011 is consumer behaviour.  I realise I’m in a minority of about 1 on this ….

[ChrisB]

Not quite....

There's a lot of truth in what you write. It's part of the compensation culture that's grown up where the person never does wrong & if wronged (including bringing it on oneself), they try & claim from the oppo.

[John R]

Given that railway byelaws specifically prohibit the action taken by the person at Hayes, I wonder how successful such a claim would be? 

No person shall move, operate, obstruct, stop or in any other way interfere with any automatic closing door, train, or any other equipment on the railway...:

Maybe the railway should be more open as to what these bylaws are.  Putting a summary of that wording on every door window might make a few people think twice, and at least it would be clear where the fault lay in the event of any incident. 

[TonyK]

It certainly wouldn't stop it happening though. The acceleration of modern trains makes an accident likey to be worse if someone gets a hand stuck. Not that they should, of course, but someone will.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Would it be better to have this thread moved to 'The Wider Picture'?

Agreed: now done. 

[TaplowGreen]

I think one thing that has changed is passenger expectations, reflecting wider social changes.  Everyone seems less willing to take responsibility for themselves, and instead expect others to “look after” them.  20 years ago if you put your hand in a Tube door the Driver would probably not release it but instead wait until you pulled it out – if you got dragged along that was your fault.

I mentioned the Hayes incident before.  Here was a passenger running down the ramp towards a train that was preparing to depart and deliberately putting their hand in a closing door hoping to get it opened.  Because of the small gap the Driver gets the door interlocks OK and is able to take power and drive off.  Who got blamed? The Driver.  Who would have got blamed 20 years ago? The passenger.

DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) on 12 car trains is fine if the passengers behave sensibly and keep clear of closing doors, and don’t try and blame Southern, the Driver etc if they do something silly and get hurt.  But that is not how to-days consumers behave, they’ll always want to blame someone else for their own wrong actions etc.

So the thing that has changed since 2011 is consumer behaviour.  I realise I’m in a minority of about 1 on this ….

The RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) Leadership have clarified the issue............not that it's a political strike of course, God forbid! 

(in most of the newspapers, not just the Express)

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/744753/Southern-strikes-RMT-union-boss-bring-down-Tory-government-action

[chrisr_75]

I think one thing that has changed is passenger expectations, reflecting wider social changes.  Everyone seems less willing to take responsibility for themselves, and instead expect others to “look after” them.  20 years ago if you put your hand in a Tube door the Driver would probably not release it but instead wait until you pulled it out – if you got dragged along that was your fault.

I mentioned the Hayes incident before.  Here was a passenger running down the ramp towards a train that was preparing to depart and deliberately putting their hand in a closing door hoping to get it opened.  Because of the small gap the Driver gets the door interlocks OK and is able to take power and drive off.  Who got blamed? The Driver.  Who would have got blamed 20 years ago? The passenger.

DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) on 12 car trains is fine if the passengers behave sensibly and keep clear of closing doors, and don’t try and blame Southern, the Driver etc if they do something silly and get hurt.  But that is not how to-days consumers behave, they’ll always want to blame someone else for their own wrong actions etc.

So the thing that has changed since 2011 is consumer behaviour.  I realise I’m in a minority of about 1 on this ….

The RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) Leadership have clarified the issue............not that it's a political strike of course, God forbid! 

(in most of the newspapers, not just the Express)

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/744753/Southern-strikes-RMT-union-boss-bring-down-Tory-government-action

Assuming the reporting is accurate (dangerous assumption perhaps?!), then there are certainly some echoes of a certain A.Scargill - I would hope the government would ruthlessly deal with any suggestion of interference with the democratic process. RMT and/or that National Shop Stewards Network perhaps need to examine the story of the miners strike of 1984 before making grand plans about bringing down governments...

[grahame]

The RMT^▸ (National Union of Rail, Maritime & Transport Workers) Leadership have clarified the issue............not that it's a political strike of course, God forbid! 

(in most of the newspapers, not just the Express)

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/744753/Southern-strikes-RMT-union-boss-bring-down-Tory-government-action

In The Sunday Times:

A militant union leader behind the rail strikes causing chaos for millions says unions are co-ordinating action to "bring down this bloody working-class-hating Tory government".

Sean Hoyle, president of the RMT, declared that "rule No 1" for his union, whose members have held a string of strikes on the beleaguered Southern rail network, was to "strive to replace the capitalist system with a socialist order", telling a meeting of hard-left activists last month, "if we all spit together we can drown the bastards".

Whilst I would give scant regard to what an individual member said, a statement by a union's president (if confirmed) bears somewhat more weight.

Has the Shadow Transport Minister (Andy McDonald) had anything to say on the dispute?

[ChrisB]

Totally silent!