ticket validity help - Bath-London-Chertsey-Bath

[whole diary]

[Tim]

I have a trip coming up from Bath to London with a Chertsey complication.

Happy to leave Bath on the first weekday super off peak train (1013, I think) and spend the afternoon in London.  Then I want to travel to Chertsey to spend the night with a friend there.  The following weekday (lunch time-ish), I want to return from Chertsey to Bath.

My questions are:

1, ignoring time restrictions for the moment, is a Bath-London terminals super off peak return valid via Chertsey into/out of Waterloo?
2, if yes, is an overnight break of journey on the return leg permitted at Chertsey
3, if yes, the only peak time restriction I am likely to encounter would be Waterloo - Chertsey weekday evening.  Can anyone tell me what they are?

Thanks

Tim

[RichardB]

Your ticket is certainly valid at Virginia Water and you can break your journey on the way back.  Worst case - you'll need a single each way between Virginia Water & Chertsey.

[Tim]

Your ticket is certainly valid at Virginia Water and you can break your journey on the way back.  Worst case - you'll need a single each way between Virginia Water & Chertsey.

Ok thanks.  That's a start.  The online journey planner tells me that I need to buy two tickets for WAT to BTH^» (Bath Spa - next trains) via Chertsey but only one for WAT to BTH via Virginia Water which suggests that maybe a break at Chersey is not allowed but a break at Virginia Water is???

 

[ChrisB]

So, worst case as above then?

[Fourbee]

AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) the routing guide is just that now, a guide and the journey planner/valid itinerary trumps all.

Relevant Maps:
BL BL+WX LA LA+WX WC^▸ (Wiltshire Council (Unitary Authority))

My Interpretation:
Direct to Paddington
via Reading/Virginia Water/Staines/Clapham into Waterloo/Victoria
via Westbury/Salisbury/Woking & via Weybridge/Virginia Water into Waterloo/Victoria
via Westbury/Salisbury/Woking & via Surbiton into Waterloo/Victoria
via Westbury/Salisbury/Woking & via Wimbledon/Peckham Rye into London Bridge
via Westbury/Salisbury/Woking & via Wimbledon/Tulse Hill into City Thameslink

So I reckon* you could use it, but the drawback is you would need to go home the following morning via Salisbury for it to be allowed. I think you would struggle to get a journey planner to show it as I reckon you would need to put in more than 1 via point.

*don't quote me anywhere other than here on that!

[Fourbee]

The relevant restriction out of Waterloo is (not valid on trains) after   
15:59 and before 19:01.

[Tim]

The relevant restriction out of Waterloo is (not valid on trains) after   
15:59 and before 19:01.

Thanks both.  Are there any restrictions out of Virginia Water going west to Reading?

[Fourbee]

The relevant restriction out of Waterloo is (not valid on trains) after   
15:59 and before 19:01.

Thanks both.  Are there any restrictions out of Virginia Water going west to Reading?

Well, that is a pertinent question; a lot of the text used to refer to "not valid when boarding", but it has been revised since those days to "Not valid on trains to depart"

This link is time sensitive:
http://traintimes.org.uk/wat/rdg/1859

The full restriction text is here:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/XC

Put all that together and I would say the first valid service from Virginia Water to Reading is the 1950.

[Fourbee]

I think this is a good moment to say that I have been recently working for Stagecoach, but have applied for a job with First Group.

I am utterly dismayed at the current state of affairs regarding ticketing, but hope that I will be able to make a positive difference in the future.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Congratulations, and good luck, Fourbee! 

[Fourbee]

Thanks Chris. I will keep everyone posted on here, especially if I am successful.

[JayMac]

AFAIK^▸ (as far as I know) the routing guide is just that now, a guide and the journey planner/valid itinerary trumps all.

Use of the National Routing Guide is still codified in the National Rail Conditions of Travel. Using a mapped route from the guide is still allowed for; whatever a journey planner, itinerary, or ticket retailer might say. If the Routing Guide is used it forms part of the contract between TOC^▸ (Train Operating Company) and passenger.

The journey planner doesn't trump all.

If a journey planner says a route isn't valid but the Routing Guide says it is, then that route is valid. If a ticket retailer says a route isn't valid and the Routing Guide says it is, then that route is valid.

From the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

13.3 Your Ticket may show that it is valid only on certain train services, such as those of a particular Train Company, or on trains travelling via a certain route or routes. If no specific route or Train Company is shown, then (subject to any time restrictions for the type of fare you have purchased) it will be valid on:

a) any direct train service between the station(s) shown on your Ticket;

b) by any services (including any change of trains) over the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services between the stations shown on your Ticket;

c) any other routes as shown in the ‘National Routeing Guide’.

The easiest way to check for valid routes is to use the journey planner at nationalrail.co.uk. You can also check the National Routeing Guide which is available at data.atoc.org/routeing-guide, or ask the Ticket seller when you buy your Ticket.

[grahame]

Stepping beyond Tim's original question, two more general questions about routing

ONE

This link is time sensitive:
http://traintimes.org.uk/wat/rdg/1859

Can we rely on the fares quoted / routes offered by train times and similar sites?    As an example, I am travelling to Manchester for an early start on 11th October, and this is what I was offered:



Yes - I know that the least changes route and sometimes the least elapsed time can be via Southampton - but is it really a valid route?  At £87 anytime single, it's a better value fare for people travelling from Southampton to Manchester that the £115 fare of a Southampton to Manchester ticket and if the routing is a valid one anyone travelling Southampton to Manchester could save £28 ...

TWO

From the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

13.3 Your Ticket may show that it is valid only on certain train services, such as those of a particular Train Company, or on trains travelling via a certain route or routes. If no specific route or Train Company is shown, then (subject to any time restrictions for the type of fare you have purchased) it will be valid on:

a) any direct train service between the station(s) shown on your Ticket;

b) by any services (including any change of trains) over the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services between the stations shown on your Ticket;

c) any other routes as shown in the ‘National Routeing Guide’.

The easiest way to check for valid routes is to use the journey planner at nationalrail.co.uk. You can also check the National Routeing Guide which is available at data.atoc.org/routeing-guide, or ask the Ticket seller when you buy your Ticket.

What are the rules where specific routing (where "any permitted" is not printed on the ticket)?   The National Rail conditions of travel state (a) (b) and (c) specifically for "any permitted" but as far as I can see offer no guidance for tickets that do include routing information.   The natural assumption would be that you're limited by (a), (b) and (c) in addition to what's printed on the ticket, but that's not what it says!    I'm not about to try it out, but there seems to be an argument that a £52 anytime single Westbury to Oxford routed "not Reading" would be valid with changes at Newport and Birmingham New Street!

[ChrisB]

If a journey planner says a route isn't valid but the Routing Guide says it is, then that route is valid. If a ticket retailer says a route isn't valid and the Routing Guide says it is, then that route is valid.

And if it shows on the Journey planner & not in the routing guide? I guess there equal in this regard?

Can we rely on the fares quoted / routes offered by train times and similar sites? 

I'd say not....any number of discrepancies could be programmed. There would be a need for any route to be corroborated in the places listed by the NCRoC.

Yes - I know that the least changes route and sometimes the least elapsed time can be via Southampton - but is it really a valid route?

is it mapped in the routing guide - that would be where I'd look/ask....

What are the rules where specific routing (where "any permitted" is not printed on the ticket)?   The National Rail conditions of travel state (a) (b) and (c) specifically for "any permitted" but as far as I can see offer no guidance for tickets that do include routing information.   The natural assumption would be that you're limited by (a), (b) and (c) in addition to what's printed on the ticket, but that's not what it says!    I'm not about to try it out, but there seems to be an argument that a £52 anytime single Westbury to Oxford routed "not Reading" would be valid with changes at Newport and Birmingham New Street!

Again, can you get the journey planner to show this route? Or mapped in the routing guide? It sure isn't the shortest/least changes route.....


Edit - grahame - to clarify quoting

[grahame]

What are the rules where specific routing (where "any permitted" is not printed on the ticket)?   The National Rail conditions of travel state (a) (b) and (c) specifically for "any permitted" but as far as I can see offer no guidance for tickets that do include routing information.   The natural assumption would be that you're limited by (a), (b) and (c) in addition to what's printed on the ticket, but that's not what it says!    I'm not about to try it out, but there seems to be an argument that a £52 anytime single Westbury to Oxford routed "not Reading" would be valid with changes at Newport and Birmingham New Street!

Again, can you get the journey planner to show this route? Or mapped in the routing guide? It sure isn't the shortest/least changes route.....

But my whole point is that the rules /routing guide / journey planner can (now? - what was it before?) be read as to only apply to "any permitted" - as written, there's an argument that says that "not via Reading" means just that - and it does not mean "as shown in the routing guide, excluding routes via Reading".

As far as I can make out, the shortest route Westbury to Oxford is changing at Swindon and Didcot, and the only way I can thing of doing it with just one change, if Reading isn't allowed, is to change at Worcester Shrub Hill.