Would full privatisation work?

[whole diary]

[Adelante_CCT]

Heathrow Airport - private, infrastructure, day to day running all managed by a private firm, yet it can still afford to improve things.

I'm noting that your quoted example (Heathrow) is private rail and charges £2 per mile for journeys, no off-peak

I think devonexpress was referring to the actual airport rather than 'Heathrow Express' ?

[bobm]

By contrast, the one long term franchise, Chiltern, (aside from the 4 Class 172s in 2011) has only introduced cascaded Class 170s (reclassified 168/3s) and very old (but very well refurbished) Mk III carriages in recent years.

However Chiltern have spend sizeable sums on the Evergreen projects.

[grahame]

I'm noting that your quoted example (Heathrow) is private rail and charges £2 per mile for journeys, no off-peak

I think devonexpress was referring to the actual airport rather than 'Heathrow Express' ?

I think so too, but comparing private rail (very much as suggested) at Heathrow with current rail (as currently run) seems a rather good comparison to a model that Devonexpress is asking about.   We could also compare to the cost of a return journey from Portmadoc to Blaenau Ffestiniog, Taw Valley Halt to Blundson, or Llanberis to Snowdon - each fully "private", and each significantly higher in cost mile for mile than National Rail under the current system, but such comparisons aren't like for like - they're like compering a hairbrush to a tin of beans.

[paul7575]

By contrast, the one long term franchise, Chiltern, (aside from the 4 Class 172s in 2011) has only introduced cascaded Class 170s (reclassified 168/3s) and very old (but very well refurbished) Mk III carriages in recent years.

However Chiltern have spend sizeable sums on the Evergreen projects.

They agreed to pay increased track access charges once the work was completed.   Network Rail paid for the infrastructure work in the first place.   Chiltern's PR^▸ (Public Relations) includes a lot of smoke and mirrors, as is usual.

Paul

[TaplowGreen]

.............are there any countries which have fully/near to fully privatised railways and how successful are they?

[devonexpress]

.............are there any countries which have fully/near to fully privatised railways and how successful are they?

Eurostar is a private company, although with a large French government stake in it!

[ellendune]

.............are there any countries which have fully/near to fully privatised railways and how successful are they?

Eurostar is a private company, although with a large French government stake in it!

Most other European governments manage to give their nationalised industries much more freedom to get on with the job without micromanagement from the government.

[devonexpress]

Most other European governments manage to give their nationalised industries much more freedom to get on with the job without micromanagement from the government.

This is exactly what I've been trying to convey.  Take the Great Western ,its had problems since 1995 of running on time, delayed trains mainly due to the infrastructure, and its taken over 20 years to do anything about it!

If that was private company, I believe thing's would have moved on and progressed a long time ago.

[Richard Fairhurst]

Would a privatised rail company have kept the Cotswold Line open in the 1970s? Or the TransWilts in the 2000s? Very possibly not. Yet look at them both now. We know what a railway operated purely to meet its own costs would look like - the Serpell Report showed us, and it wasn't pretty.

1) It would take all cost off the taxpayer funding the railway

UK^▸ (United Kingdom) rail subsidies were estimated to be £4bn in 2015. Road subsidies for HGVs alone were estimated to be £5bn. One estimate of the total annual subsidy to motoring was £10bn, even before you look at the market cost of free parking and the like. Despite this, railways cause many fewer deaths and much less pollution. How about getting the roads off the public purse before looking at the much smaller impact of railways?

[devonexpress]

How about getting the roads off the public purse before looking at the much smaller impact of railways?

How about you work on your public skills before launching a personal attack which has nothing to do with the main question

[bobm]

Pardon?  What prompted that reply?  Although I have never met Richard I do know he has a lot of knowledge on his subject. 

Could you please explain what I am missing? Your comment seems more than just a little off the mark to me.

[ChrisB]

What on earth was personal about rhat response? Are you an HGV subsidy receiver perchance?

[grahame]

How about getting the roads off the public purse before looking at the much smaller impact of railways?

How about you work on your public skills before launching a personal attack which has nothing to do with the main question

This site provides a forum for discussion of various views - but explicitly requires members not to resort to personal attacks. From our introduction:

Opinions are welcome, whether or not the operators of the board share them, but information which you know to be incorrect (or is misleading) is not.  Personal attacks on people / individuals are unacceptable and the moderators of the board will take appropriate action against anyone who violates these rules ... however,  we have a gentle moderation approach and you're likely to get no more than a gentle warning and a request to change your post if you go "beyond the mark" after a stressful commute from Pangbourne to Paddington one morning.

Neither I nor my fellow administrators can see anything what so ever in Richard's posts that make them personal attacks - in fact I can't think of anyone less likely to indulge in such behaviour.    I do, however, see a personal attack against Richards by Devonexpress - "How about you work on your public skills" looks to me really nasty. At initial reading, it looks like at attempt to divert attention from a good question to which devonexpress has no easy answer.

Devonexpress - please explain (your choice of here, or by personal message to any of the admin or moderator team) how you have been personally attacked, and why we should not treat your follow up exactly as such a personal attack.  I and other members would probably much appreciate further background to your line of discussion, including more about the background as to why you're asking, and with further technical comment and thought on matters raised upthread.  A confirmation (here in public, at the same level as your original post) that you did not intend a personal attack on Richard would also be appreciated, and an apology should you decide (with hindsight) that your post was out of order.

edit to correct typo

[devonexpress]

How about getting the roads off the public purse before looking at the much smaller impact of railways?

How about you work on your public skills before launching a personal attack which has nothing to do with the main question

This site provides a forum for discussion of various views - but explicitly requires members not to resort to personal attacks. From our introduction:

Opinions are welcome, whether or not the operators of the board share them, but information which you know to be incorrect (or is misleading) is not.  Personal attacks on people / individuals are unacceptable and the moderators of the board will take appropriate action against anyone who violates these rules ... however,  we have a gentle moderation approach and you're likely to get no more than a gentle warning and a request to change your post if you go "beyond the mark" after a stressful commute from Pangbourne to Paddington one morning.

Neither I nor my fellow administrators can see anything what so ever in Richard's posts that make them personal attacks - in fact I can't think of anyone less likely to indulge in such behaviour.    I do, however, see a personal attack against Richards by Devonexpress - "How about you work on your public skills" looks to me really nasty. At initial reading, it looks like at attempt to divert attention from a good question to which devonexpress has no easy answer.

Devonexpress - please explain (your choice of here, or by personal message to any of the admin or moderator team) how you have been personally attacked, and why we should not treat your follow up exactly as such a personal attack.  I and other members would probably much appreciate further background to your line of discussion, including more about the background as to why you're asking, and with further technical comment and thought on matters raised upthread.  A confirmation (here in public, at the same level as your original post) that you did not intend a personal attack on Richard would also be appreciated, and an apology should you decide (with hindsight) that your post was out of order.

edit to correct typo

Considering I was reading it a very late at night, and have just read it again I was going to admit to being mistaken. However since the moderator/admin team have now decided to gang up, then NO, I shall not apologise.

And as for the question I started off with, nobody has actually answered it at all, its all been a very long word response implying "shut up, we like how it works at the minute" Therefore stick the forum up your arse!

[Chris from Nailsea]

Considering I was reading it a very late at night, and have just read it again I was going to admit to being mistaken. However since the moderator/admin team have now decided to gang up, then NO, I shall not apologise.

And as for the question I started off with, nobody has actually answered it at all, its all been a very long word response implying "shut up, we like how it works at the minute" Therefore stick the forum up your arse!

Thank you for posting that response, devonexpress.

There is really no 'ganging up' by the admin / moderator team here: we were all simply rather surprised at the tone of your previous post - and indeed other members of the Coffee Shop forum outside the admin team also showed some concern.

I'm therefore going to invite you to reconsider the instruction in your post quoted above.  On this forum, we don't slap a ban on anyone at the first opportunity: we try to encourage an ongoing sensible debate on the subject.