Tabbard colours

[whole diary]

[ChrisB]

Yellow front ends are no longer de rigeur I understand - recently removed from safety regs.

[Tim]

Yellow front ends are no longer de rigeur I understand - recently removed from safety regs.

I'd forgotten that.  Seems like a retrograde step if you ask me.  Even if it is less important to have yellow front ends than it used to be, It is not as if the requirement to have yellow front ends carries any cost (yellow paint is the same price as other colours)

[paul7575]

Yellow front ends are no longer de rigeur I understand - recently removed from safety regs.

I'd forgotten that.  Seems like a retrograde step if you ask me.  Even if it is less important to have yellow front ends than it used to be, It is not as if the requirement to have yellow front ends carries any cost (yellow paint is the same price as other colours)

Yellow 'front ends' were not required under the previous group standards.   The requirement was only for a 1 sq m patch, the vast majority of yellow applied in recent years is for aesthetic purposes as part of the overall livery. 

The other point is that the 'yellow patch' requirement is only relaxed for trains with the very latest headlight specifications, the lights that are so bright that they are the first thing seen even in daylight.

Paul

[grahame]

(yellow paint is the same price as other colours)

It has been explained to me in the past, though, where I asked for some yellow paint that it looks dirtier much quicker than alternatives and so the maintenance costs are significantly higher.

[Tim]

(yellow paint is the same price as other colours)

It has been explained to me in the past, though, where I asked for some yellow paint that it looks dirtier much quicker than alternatives and so the maintenance costs are significantly higher.

So ToCs want to save money by washing trains less regularly and the supine regulator thinks making it harder for the public to see just how filthy their neglected trains really are is a good enough justification for relaxing a safety standard? I am all for relaxing regulations where there is substantial cost and negligible benefit, but I am afraid this justification is rather weak because it only exists in an environment where a basic thing like regular and thorough train washing is neglected. 

(I am playing devils advocate)

[ChrisB]

I think the point is that on new builds (that are likely to have the required lights),TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) can choose that pane's colour to go with their company colour scheme? Or any other colour, I guess that might mean something.

What's wrong with that, if the lights are now the safety feature on new build, rather than the yellow panel. If the RSSB^▸ (Rail Safety and Standards Board) are happy, then shouldn't you be?

[Tim]

I think the point is that on new builds (that are likely to have the required lights),TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) can choose that pane's colour to go with their company colour scheme? Or any other colour, I guess that might mean something.

What's wrong with that, if the lights are now the safety feature on new build, rather than the yellow panel. If the RSSB^▸ (Rail Safety and Standards Board) are happy, then shouldn't you be?

Well I am an old curmudgeon and so I am never happy.  I guess my problem is that I don't trust the TOCs as far as I could throw them and I am a little sceptical about RSSB which is of course owned by the TOCs and so can therefore in no way be regarded as independent and impartial (this has a bearing on arguments about DOO^▸ (Driver-Only Operation (that is, trains which operate without carrying a guard)) as well).  It just strikes me that freedom to brand the front of their trains as they like is just the sort of nonsense that a TOC would prioritise over other more sensible concerns. 

I can well believe that the new high intensity of lights provide great safety.  I can well believe that the new high intensity lights are safer than a yellow panel.  As to whether lights plus  a yellow panel is safer than just lights, I doubt .   

[ChrisB]

By your argument, you'd have all trains painted in that yellow then...because tgat wiuld be the safest yet

[Alan Pettitt]

I find it interesting that London Underground trains have red fronts even when running overground and London Overground trains have yellow fronts even when running underground.

[Tim]

By your argument, you'd have all trains painted in that yellow then...because that would be the safest yet

No,  by my argument if trains were already painted yellow all over for good historical safety reasons and a new safety advance came along, the new safety advance would be mandated in addition to the old paint requirement rather than being allowed to replace it.  Only if the historical safety feature is disproportionally expensive or has another significant drawback (such as a reliability penalty) would you be allowed to do away with it.  Yellow paint is neither expensive nor otherwise problematic so it would not be allowed to be done away with.  I am not especially bothered by removing the yellow ends requirement on new stock.  I don't think it will lead to many lives lost.  But I do object, in principle, to the idea that a historical safety standard can be removed on grounds as flimsy as "it will allow us more freedom in our branding".

Of course some train are painted almost entirely yellow.  The HOOB electrification train for example. You could argue that is only because yellow is NR^» (Network Rail - home page)'s brand.   

[ChrisB]

But stock already working would need an expensive upgrade to these new light standards before TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) could even consider a repaint of the yellow ends - do you seriously think any TOC would spend that sort of money voluntarily just to obtain a more corporate look to their trains?

Too expensive in my view - it won't happen. But new stock....that's a different matter.

[Alan Pettitt]

Yellow rear end could still be useful when a following train is between sections and unsignalled, as for example, at Maiden Newton, or at other stations where more than one train can occupy a platform.

[stuving]

But stock already working would need an expensive upgrade to these new light standards before TOCs^▸ (Train Operating Company) could even consider a repaint of the yellow ends - do you seriously think any TOC would spend that sort of money voluntarily just to obtain a more corporate look to their trains?

Too expensive in my view - it won't happen. But new stock....that's a different matter.

How are the new standards different, and how different are they? You might imagine from the reports that new lamps have to be a lot brighter, but I suspect that's not the case. It's hard to be 100% sure, as the new RSSB^▸ (Rail Safety and Standards Board) standard (GM/RT 2131, replacing GM/RT 2483 and the earlier GM/RT 2180) refers to the LOC & PAS TSI 1302/2014/EU^» (European Union - about) (which replaces both the previous TSIs - the Conventional Rail Rolling Stock (Locomotives and Passenger Carriages) TSI 2011/291/EU, and the High Speed Rolling Stock TSI 008/232/CE). And that TSI in turn refers to a standard, (BS) EN15153-1:2013, which isn't available free.

But a lot of the work that went into that standard was done by (or for) RSSB as part of project T530. In the final report*, it covers the history of train lamps (and much, much, more). The current idea of lamps for visibility is very recent in Britain - first proposed in 1984 - and the first experiments used car headlamp bulbs, of which it says: "...one version was understood to deliver a luminous intensity of 100,000 candelas when measured on axis. It is worth noting that this value exceeds any similar value in all Railway Group Standards involving train headlamps."

So brightness isn't an issue, even for high-speed trains. The minimum area or diameter was, but BS EN1513-1:2013 was revised to allow 150 mm diameter lamps, which is the same as GM/RT 2483. T530 was actually about glare, and the beam cut-off requirements are now stricter. However, LEDs are inherently directional, and ought to meet these more easily than halogen or discharge bulbs.

And most trains are getting new LED lamps anyway, to reduce maintenance, either at a refit (as for GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway)'s 165/166 fleet) or sooner. So maybe the cost isn't so great - but the requirement to consult everyone on a long list may slow down any changes.

* available from the RSSB's Spark database - you need to log on, but anyone can register.

[stuving]

Yellow rear end could still be useful when a following train is between sections and unsignalled, as for example, at Maiden Newton, or at other stations where more than one train can occupy a platform.

It looks as if you have no idea just how much work the has been on this - research, discussion, reports, experiments, consultation, and who knows what else, going back years (and covered in RSSB^▸ (Rail Safety and Standards Board) report T530). That specific issue is of course covered - see this news item or the RSSB's original PDF.

This includes a requirement to consider:

•     All operating conditions likely to be experienced by that train
  
•     The impact on the safety of railway workers, passengers and members of the public
  
•     The impact on safety at level crossings
  
•     The effect of front end colour on the perceived position of a stationary train when a driver is undertaking a permissive move into a platform already occupied by another unit
  
•     Reliability and maintenance of the headlamps
  
•     All relevant duties under health and safety legislation.

The organisation introducing the train needs to consider whether the absence of a yellow panel is ‘significant’ under the relevant regulations, and if so, is required by law to apply the Common Safety Method on Risk Evaluation and Assessment to assess the benefits or potential hazards.

The new standard provides guidance on front end colours, particularly if a company decides to exclude the yellow warning panel.  There is also advice on taking care to consider the impact of choice of certain colours and designs, for example, avoiding colours associated with signal aspects or with high visibility clothing to avoid confusion.

[devonexpress]

Out of interest, is it really necessary for dispatch staff on platforms to have tabard's on in the first place??  If they where to use the little dispatch lamps full time instead of the table tennis bats, then surely it would be visible on a long platform?

I.E a bright green GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) staff member should be very visible in crowd of passengers anyway!