More dangerous overcrowding to the Westcountry

[whole diary]

[TaplowGreen]

Paddington to Penzance due 17:12 
Service full and standing.
This is due to overcrowding because of an event.


-this has been the story on a number of services to Cornwall today, notably the 0906 from Paddington-Newquay, I've seen the pictures on board and it's the usual cattle truck throughout - people heading for the Newquay Boardmasters Surfing contest 10th-14th August.........customers were unable to access toilets, obtain food/drink from the buffet as aisles are full of people sitting down..........Bog standard response from GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) "Sorry if you feel it's unsafe, did you make a reservation?" - pal was at Plymouth when it arrived and people were struggling to get off.

It is the summer holidays, and this is an event which has been in the calendar for months, there are apparently some additional stoppers between Par and Newquay but that's all folks.

[broadgage]

"there is no spare rolling stock, we cant justify obtaining rolling stock for exceptional events such as easter, summer weekends, beginnings/ends of university terms, football matches, Christmas, rugby matches, bank holidays, school holidays, Glastonbury, surfing events, pop concerts, and other rare events"

And just to make certain that no spare capacity is available in future, we intend to scrap as many existing trains as possible, once some of the new ones arrive.

The new trains should be adequate in mild weather and during months when none of the above exceptional events take place.

[simonw]

On any given day, the main InterCity franchises must have an idea of the likely loading of a given service, so why cannot a train lending service be used to share capacity, after all I'm sure West Coast and East Coast main lines could spare a train.

Oh yes, I forgot the systems are all different and no capacity exists at Paddington, unlike Euston or Kings Cross to add extra trains.

The next time anyone mentions upgrading GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), they must consider either adding capacity to Paddington (an extra deck with 4-6 extra platforms) or get rid of Paddington and use Old Oak Common, but I suppose these ideas are two radical.   

[IndustryInsider]

The next time anyone mentions upgrading GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), they must consider either adding capacity to Paddington (an extra deck with 4-6 extra platforms) or get rid of Paddington and use Old Oak Common, but I suppose these ideas are two radical.   

There's two new platforms being built under the current station.  That should provide enough capacity as it will remove six arrivals and departures per off-peak hour from the current station - more in the peaks.

[chrisr_75]

The next time anyone mentions upgrading GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway), they must consider either adding capacity to Paddington (an extra deck with 4-6 extra platforms) or get rid of Paddington and use Old Oak Common, but I suppose these ideas are two radical.   

There's two new platforms being built under the current station.  That should provide enough capacity as it will remove six arrivals and departures per off-peak hour from the current station - more in the peaks.

And don't forget a couple of the short platforms at Paddington are being lengthened in anticipation of the new (longer) electric trains coming into operation in the Thames valley.

The days of the 2 and 3 car Turbos are numbered.

[broadgage]

Being optimistic for a change, the two new crossrail platforms being built under Paddington, SHOULD provide a lot of extra capacity.
Other things being equal, a through platform provides several times the capacity of a terminating platform.

If a train arrives in a terminating platform, it takes many minutes for even the most basic cleaning/servicing, and so on before it can depart.
A terminating platform can hopefully accommodate 2 or maybe 3 inter city trains an hour, or perhaps twice as many local services.

A through platform should easily accommodate 12 trains an hour, and maybe 20 trains an hour is just about possible under very favourable conditions. PROVIDED that the rest of the line is working reliably. 

[Timmer]

On any given day, the main InterCity franchises must have an idea of the likely loading of a given service, so why cannot a train lending service be used to share capacity, after all I'm sure West Coast and East Coast main lines could spare a train.

Oh yes, I forgot the systems are all different and no capacity exists at Paddington, unlike Euston or Kings Cross to add extra trains.

Not sure they can spare a train. East coast keep pinching East Midlands HSTs^▸ (High Speed Train) so much so that EMT^» (East Midlands Trains - about) is down to the bare minimum required now.

As for capacity at Euston and KX, I don't think there is much if any spare capacity. I know paths out of KX are all taken at present but with a plan to squeeze an additional path into the system in the near future with faster trains and infustructure improvements.

[Chris from Nailsea]

Being optimistic for a change ...

   Are you feeling alright, broadgage - you've not suffered a recent bump on the head, for example ?? 

[Bob_Blakey]

GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) have apparently said that there is no appropriate 'spare' rolling stock with which to run additional services.
The existing ticketing system cannot, in isolation, limit the number of passengers joining a particular service.
Even if Paddington platform capacity increases as described, does the network configuration in Cornwall and parts of Devon potentially have enough/any spare paths to allow the running of extra long distance trains?

In the very short term I think the specified issue could only be resolved by the introduction of 'Reservation Only' services together with appropriate ticket checks at or via a dedicated barrier. Trouble is, of course, that unless you also implement 'non-refundable, non-changeable, specified train only' tickets - can't see it ever happening - a full load of passengers can still not be guaranteed.

If 'RO' services are considered to be an absolute non-starter will the SET^▸ (Super Express Train (now IET)) train plan come to the rescue?

Personally - and I know this will annoy some forum contributors - I believe that some of the blame for these incidents lies with the passengers; significant numbers of passengers have a degree of choice over the service on which they travel and when they buy their tickets so booking in advance, and avoiding trains which no longer offer reservations, should always be considered. Anybody turning up on the day and boarding an already crowded service has, in my opinion, no grounds for complaint.

This should not though absolve GWR of their responsibility for carrying out appropriate boarding controls, platform space permitting, on obviously busy trains and also for using the ticketing system, particularly online, to specifically and clearly warn intending passengers that certain services are already full and should be avoided.

(Lights blue touchpaper...  )     

[broadgage]

As I have previously remarked, the crowding could be somewhat reduced by selling no discounted advance tickets for services that are expected to be overcrowded.
I cant agree with proposals to ban or restrict the sale of full fare walk up tickets. It does seem rather odd to restrict sales of expensive tickets in order to give more room for holders of discounted tickets.

Elsewhere on these forums, the needs of business travelers have been discussed. It certainly wont encourage business use of rail travel if the potential business traveller is told "you cant pay the (very high) fare to travel today because the trains are full of discounted ticket holders"
Likewise, the business traveller who has paid hundred of pounds for a full fare fully flexible ticket, wont be very impressed if told at the last minute that "boarding controls" prevent use of the most expensive ticket on the chosen train.

Business users of trains want a reliable service, and by reliable they mean not "did the train run" but "did I/my colleagues board our chosen train without undue hassle and get seats"

[bobm]

Paddington to Penzance due 17:12 
Service full and standing.
This is due to overcrowding because of an event.


-this has been the story on a number of services to Cornwall today, notably the 0906 from Paddington-Newquay, I've seen the pictures on board and it's the usual cattle truck throughout - people heading for the Newquay Boardmasters Surfing contest 10th-14th August.........customers were unable to access toilets, obtain food/drink from the buffet as aisles are full of people sitting down..........Bog standard response from GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) "Sorry if you feel it's unsafe, did you make a reservation?" - pal was at Plymouth when it arrived and people were struggling to get off.

It is the summer holidays, and this is an event which has been in the calendar for months, there are apparently some additional stoppers between Par and Newquay but that's all folks.

Seems getting there by road has had its problems too...

From the Plymouth Herald

Five coaches crammed full of people on their way to Boardmasters Festival were taken off the roads during a police crackdown in Newquay.
One of the coaches was forced to offload all 90 of its passengers yesterday, Thursday, after failing to follow strict rules on how many hours drivers can rack up before taking a break – and because its door did not close securely.

Sniffer dogs were also involved in the operation and a number of minor drugs were seized by police.

[ellendune]

Personally - and I know this will annoy some forum contributors - I believe that some of the blame for these incidents lies with the passengers; significant numbers of passengers have a degree of choice over the service on which they travel and when they buy their tickets so booking in advance, and avoiding trains which no longer offer reservations, should always be considered. Anybody turning up on the day and boarding an already crowded service has, in my opinion, no grounds for complaint.

This should not though absolve GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) of their responsibility for carrying out appropriate boarding controls, platform space permitting, on obviously busy trains and also for using the ticketing system, particularly online, to specifically and clearly warn intending passengers that certain services are already full and should be avoided.  

I have some sympathy for this point of view.  If you decide to take a plane at the last minute and it is full, you cannot get on that is it! However, people are used to trains being a walk up service.  Any Reservation Only restrictions would therefore have to be very well publicised (not just  note in the timetable).

Regardless of this flagging trains likely to be very crowded in the on-line timetables would be a very good move.

Also enforcing the pick up only at Reading on these occasions would be good. Though as has been said before this may not be practical.

Broadgage is also right about discounted tickets on these services. 

[simonw]

If GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) has a suspicion that any service is going to be very busy, they can cancel stops on near stations (Reading/Didcott) to encourage these passengers to get another service, and look at cancelling another service(s) to provide an extra train.

Whilst cancelling an existing service may annoy a lot of people, GWR should consider running a number of extra services at some points of the day that it can 're-assign' in an emergency.

[grahame]

Whilst cancelling an existing service may annoy a lot of people, GWR^▸ (Great Western Railway) should consider running a number of extra services at some points of the day that it can 're-assign' in an emergency.

There is a surprising degree already in the planning along the lines of "what goes first".  On HST^▸ (High Speed Train) services out of Paddington, it's no mistake that the Cardiff trains starting with the 07:15 are first for the chop, with passengers falling back onto the trains that carry on to Swansea.  This is done almost routinely for Glastonbury and the Cheltenham Gold Cup.

Ad hoc at short notice, it's much more complex as it involves last minute staffing rota changes, ensuring that there are paths, platforms, stabling and servicing along the way, and that the trains can be got back into pattern afterwards. There's also the little matter that at the times the trains to Cornwall are busy, the ones to Bristol and Swansea probably are as well. You could perhaps shorten a couple of suburban services out of Paddington on a Friday evening, but then a turbo service with the released train to Plymouth would be inappropriate and I suspect out of gauge.

[oxviem]

indeed this does already happen in the summer at least when on summer Fridays the 1836 suburban service is formed of a turbo and not a HST^▸ (High Speed Train).